Horse snigging

[clemsonfor]

No Mennonite or Amish in my area.

We got burned by a "reputable forester" several years ago on a small plot. Signed contracts and all as what to cut and not cut. He did not follow the contract and took too many trees. My mother did not want us to take him to court (long story) so we didn't.

We have taken about forty acres out of row crop and reforested and of the mature forest we would be very selective in cutting, so the volume would be very low.

Im a forester, i work for a government intetity so i do no public work. But we are all the same but do little different things. I just do my job for the public and not a privite individual.

That said to take money for services as a forester, in any state i beleive, you need to be licensed. This license has a number attached to him, you can with his name file a complaint against him and if fould in the wrong according to the contract will either have to make restitution payments for "stolen" wood or his loose his license. But you may be past a statute of limitations. Yes like Ford said the logger was the one who cut to much, but you got paid for the wood, unless you sold lump sum, then he did not do his job by not allowing to much to be cut by oversight, or by not having a penalty assed for damaged or illeagal cut trees which he would have deducted from the performance bond and then paid to you. Usually this is similar value to a timber tresspass judgement of 3 times stumpage so this makes the loggger not want to do it, as he will loose the **** out of money cutting trees not for sale.

Yes your forester did not do his job, OR your contract was to grey and you expected one thing and he was expecting another and yall never really saw eye to eye on this. Remember he does this everyday and what looks like a "normal" thinnig will look horrible and raped to some. Trust me i get this all the time on the lands i manage and we live in the south which is the wood basket of the world.

A thing about loggers there are good ones and sloppy ones a good logger can not damage many trees if they do it right, a sloppy one can bust up 5 trees left per acre in a clearcut!!! Cut in the winter when the bark is tight, spring is the worst, if a tree or tire bumps a tree a piece of bark the size of you will fall off. Poplar and pine are notorious for this with oak not far behind.

Horse loggers will pay you barely anything as they rarely see they payout a large scale one does at the mill, unless they have a select funature market in NC or somewhere.

I will give any advice that yall want with an astrix associated with it, that is i am not a registerd forester as i do not need it since i do not take money for forestry consulting on the private sector, but i do have a bachlors and masters degree from an acrettedited forestry school. Look at my screen name!!!

 

[jml755]

Immediately he turned sideways as he did not like the branches that were following us.

Sounds about right. :laughing: I've suggested to my wife that we use our 11 yr old TB gelding (retired from the racetrack) for "work" things like this thread showcases and I get evil looks. Considering he can spook at a pile of dirt or wooden pallet that was "not there yesterday" and a pile of brush or a log following him would be instant trauma, she's probably right that its' not a good idea.

His idea of working hard is to be ridden 6 days out of 7 for no longer than an hour each day. (Why he gets a day off, I don't know ) If it's windy or raining, he is ridden indoors. Stable is heated and stall cleaned daily. Wife scrubs his automatic waterbowl daily to clean the grain bits and hay out of it (that he just puts back into it) :confused2:

Anyway, glad to hear somebody else wants to use a "hayburner" for something other than creating "garden fertilizer". :thumbsup:

 

[TripleR]

Im a forester, i work for a government intetity so i do no public work. But we are all the same but do little different things. I just do my job for the public and not a privite individual.

That said to take money for services as a forester, in any state i beleive, you need to be licensed. This license has a number attached to him, you can with his name file a complaint against him and if fould in the wrong according to the contract will either have to make restitution payments for "stolen" wood or his loose his license. But you may be past a statute of limitations. Yes like Ford said the logger was the one who cut to much, but you got paid for the wood, unless you sold lump sum, then he did not do his job by not allowing to much to be cut by oversight, or by not having a penalty assed for damaged or illeagal cut trees which he would have deducted from the performance bond and then paid to you. Usually this is similar value to a timber tresspass judgement of 3 times stumpage so this makes the loggger not want to do it, as he will loose the **** out of money cutting trees not for sale.

Yes your forester did not do his job, OR your contract was to grey and you expected one thing and he was expecting another and yall never really saw eye to eye on this. Remember he does this everyday and what looks like a "normal" thinnig will look horrible and raped to some. Trust me i get this all the time on the lands i manage and we live in the south which is the wood basket of the world.

A thing about loggers there are good ones and sloppy ones a good logger can not damage many trees if they do it right, a sloppy one can bust up 5 trees left per acre in a clearcut!!! Cut in the winter when the bark is tight, spring is the worst, if a tree or tire bumps a tree a piece of bark the size of you will fall off. Poplar and pine are notorious for this with oak not far behind.

Horse loggers will pay you barely anything as they rarely see they payout a large scale one does at the mill, unless they have a select funature market in NC or somewhere.

I will give any advice that yall want with an astrix associated with it, that is i am not a registerd forester as i do not need it since i do not take money for forestry consulting on the private sector, but i do have a bachlors and masters degree from an acrettedited forestry school. Look at my screen name!!!

A family member who knows little of such things negotiated the contract. The payment was a lump sum with the work specified. Our land had been hit by a tornado and all downed trees were to be removed as well as storm damaged ones with no standing undamaged trees to be touched. The tops were to be cleared out. I was working and not living in the area and didn't see what had happened until he pulled out. This happened several years ago.

Dealing with family members can be a very thorny issue; can't really go into details.

I have found in dealing with some of the older generation, it is hard for them not to be trusting as they grew up when a man's word was his bond. I spent my professional life around courtrooms/prisons and cop shops and know you simply can no longer do this.

For the property we now own, money is not a real consideration, I am more interested in proper forest management. We took about forty acres of land out of production and planted a mix of pine and hardwoods. Our existing mature forest has very large trees that either get blown down or just die and I know that some thinning can be beneficial. We have some stands of Royal Paulownia trees that could be harvested, but as you correctly state the price is not much right now.

 

[BobG_in_VA]

A few TBNers here have woodlots and I thought they might find this video interesting.

YouTube - Horse snigging

I've seen many a two horse team pulling logs out of the woods...down here below the Mason Dixon line its called "snakin' " . I used to feed a team on weekends when the loggers/sawmillers weren't there. As far as draft horses are concerned, these horses can also be ridden...however, TBs are not necessarilly the reverse..BobG in VA

 

[clemsonfor]

A family member who knows little of such things negotiated the contract. The payment was a lump sum with the work specified. Our land had been hit by a tornado and all downed trees were to be removed as well as storm damaged ones with no standing undamaged trees to be touched. The tops were to be cleared out. I was working and not living in the area and didn't see what had happened until he pulled out. This happened several years ago.

Dealing with family members can be a very thorny issue; can't really go into details.

I have found in dealing with some of the older generation, it is hard for them not to be trusting as they grew up when a man's word was his bond. I spent my professional life around courtrooms/prisons and cop shops and know you simply can no longer do this.

For the property we now own, money is not a real consideration, I am more interested in proper forest management. We took about forty acres of land out of production and planted a mix of pine and hardwoods. Our existing mature forest has very large trees that either get blown down or just die and I know that some thinning can be beneficial. We have some stands of Royal Paulownia trees that could be harvested, but as you correctly state the price is not much right now.

"proper" forest management can be done with logging. You will get to a result faster than nature will allow. YOu have pointed that out weather we harvest trees or not they will be harvested, yours were, by god(tornado), you just wanted to capture some of that value. A landowners objective and therefore management plan can be as varied as the weather, thats ok cause its your land. IF you want to grow pulpwood every 16 years even though you could make more money growing logs onto 28 years fine thats what you want if you want to thin and clearcut as needed good if you never want to cut a stick of timer thats also fine. I understand where your coming from. I am a forester and wanted to thin my land but casue i deer hunt i am concerned with individual tree health, i dont want to loose any oak cause some hubgover skidder driver was not looking foward while moving and skinned up my tree. This really is not the main reason just in my head. the real reason is that i have closed canopy in my HW forest. This closed canopy situation is really not beneficial to wildlife as there is very little to no herbacious growth on the forest floor which is what they eat. By thinning out suppressed and undesirable species i would do good for my oaks for growth but would also allow light to hit the floor causing the sweetgun to sprout and seeds to germinate but also briars to grow in open areas, making walking to a stand in the dark or seeing deer chase in the open woods 100yds away next to impossible without burning the property every few years which at this point i am not set up to do (no breaks on the back side) and this also costs money for the commission to plow and be on standby as well as torch fuel etc and worried about it jumping the line. I totally understand.

Your idea of damaged trees and the loggers may not have been the same he may have thought to take any tree out with half it branches broken off, which really is no problem for the treee.

-Nate

 

[TripleR]

"proper" forest management can be done with logging. You will get to a result faster than nature will allow. YOu have pointed that out weather we harvest trees or not they will be harvested, yours were, by god(tornado), you just wanted to capture some of that value. A landowners objective and therefore management plan can be as varied as the weather, that's OK cause its your land. IF you want to grow pulpwood every 16 years even though you could make more money growing logs onto 28 years fine that's what you want if you want to thin and clear-cut as needed good if you never want to cut a stick of timer that's also fine. I understand where your coming from. I am a forester and wanted to thin my land but cause i deer hunt i am concerned with individual tree health, i don't want to loose any oak cause some hubgover skidder driver was not looking forward while moving and skinned up my tree. This really is not the main reason just in my head. the real reason is that i have closed canopy in my HW forest. This closed canopy situation is really not beneficial to wildlife as there is very little to no herbacious growth on the forest floor which is what they eat. By thinning out suppressed and undesirable species i would do good for my oaks for growth but would also allow light to hit the floor causing the Sweet Gun to sprout and seeds to germinate but also briars to grow in open areas, making walking to a stand in the dark or seeing deer chase in the open woods 100yds away next to impossible without burning the property every few years which at this point i am not set up to do (no breaks on the back side) and this also costs money for the commission to plow and be on standby as well as torch fuel etc and worried about it jumping the line. I totally understand.

Your idea of damaged trees and the loggers may not have been the same he may have thought to take any tree out with half it branches broken off, which really is no problem for the tree.

-Nate

Actually, it was a question of paying someone to come in and clean the mess up as we did not have the equipment or time or get paid to have someone come in and clean it up. The woods was only several acres in size, on our family farm, not where I live now and is the last standing timber for miles as everyone around us has clear cut and put it under the plow. I had worked in it with my parents and later with my sons to teach them a good work ethic. My brothers live on the property and we bought a tree mover, so all the money went back into restoration. It has far more sentimental value than financial.

The land on which I now live is pretty heavily forested and we try to manage it for wildlife for the most part, so a downed tree here and there isn't a big issue. We have cleared out a few open places to allow new growth and I am thinning some of the newer trees.

We planted several acres, about 20 or so in pulpwood as my father in law wanted to see the results before he passed. We will clear cut that some day and replant with something else. I am in my 60's and won't get to see a lot of the results, but will enjoy the journey and my kids and their families will carry on I believe. We enjoy it, but I guess nature managed long before we got here.

 

[clemsonfor]

yep it did and dose ok on its own. Thats how we get good quality timber.

 

[ToadHill]

I know one of the reasons people like to use horses for forest work is the claim that it reduces soil compaction. I've not figured out the mathmatical formula but I'll bet that the weight of a horse on a 4 to 6" square footprint compared to the much larger footprint of a tractor tire are about the same.

 

[clemsonfor]

Id agree, you get horrible soil compaction along horse trails.

 

[Gordon Gould]

We have about 150 acres of woods and won't do any logging because of the damage from skidders. I would love to have someone available who uses horses.

It is a shame that you are so turned off by logging - but understandable from what you have described of your experience with it. From what I have seen your experience is to common but not at all necessary. I have seen many wood lots, large and small, which were managed for timber where anyone would be proud to be the owner.
Through logging you have the chance to work with nature to make your woodlot the best it can be. Instead of the management being only through the randomness of nature you can add your own personal preferences by the manipulation of the woodlot through logging. But as clemsonfor said the landowner, forester, and logger must all have the same vision.