An Old Goat Ranch in Texas

[terry.dinerman]

I might recommend putting a box or two in along the run to make the pulls easier. They wont need to be as big as the ones used on the power run for the primary, but they are nice to have. They also give you a point to run other conduits from for things along the way later.

Be safe and stay cool. Maybe one of these winters when the rain is getting to me too much we might be able to make it down your way at a time when you're state side. There's a few TBN members down your way that I'd love to have a chance to meet.:thumbsup:

Cyril-

You are spot-on regarding breaking up the pulls...I will have three 90's in the run...but I had not considered boxes...I plan on long radius 90's...

I am following a proposed fenceline, thru a corner...thus keeping areas adjacent to the house ect as open as possible for the future...plus, knowing that my utilities are within "X" feet of the fence will reduce the risk of any foolishness....

I plan to make the pulls with the main runs of pipe glued up and on the surface...start at the disconnect to the 90, thread on the 90, glue it up, then finish the pull up to the sub....close up the corner 90...throw the main runs into the trench....thread the 90's and risers on the ends (they will reduce to 3" to enter the panels) and then bury the whole mess....

I also have one pipe-crossing to contend with...the water main MUST cross over at some point, so I will start the trench from 3' deep at the disconnect for about 20 feet thru the crossover zone, and then bring it up to 24" for the rest of the run. It will be a long taper...those 20' joints of 4" don't bend much...

I only need 24" for my water around here, hard freezes are short lived in this part of the Texas, but they do happen occasionally....so that will give me a small margin of safety between the water and power trenches and sufficient depth for the waterline....

If I suddenly develop the need for a lot more electrical stuff out at the barn, I could see pulling another set of conductors.

NATURALLY....all the 90's will be large radius and I will be putting a "Pulling String" in along with the conductors, "justincase"...string and pulling soap is cheap...digging is not...

The "Big Electrical House" I have been buying from over in Hunstville has had everything I've needed so far, and their warehouse looked like the one out of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", so I am pretty sure I should have no problem getting long radius 90's and proper pulling soap etc...

Looking waaaaaay into the future, should pulling after burial fail, and I ever have to bust into that 90, a box would be a good way to restore the protection for the conductors at that point....

I will put that suggestion in my will...

Now as far as visitors are concerned, there are so many TBNet members here in Texas you may as well start a convention...and from my experience with Texas hospitality, you may not want to leave....

<....A CONVENTION.....Oh my...now THERE is an IDEA...!!>

So until the TBNet Convention, I will come up with a dry sack fro you to sleep on, a bowl of kibble, a cheap cigar and a wee dram for anyone who knocks on the door and asks...

I will stay cool if you stay dry...but I think I have the better chance...a cold "Shiner Bock Beer" can cure a lot of HOT...but not so much cold n' wet...

But I could be wrong...

BE SAFE!

 

[mojoinco]

Hola!

I went through some of the same thoughts when I ran a line to my shop. I really wanted to be able to get up to 200 amps, but settled on 100 as adequate. One question I have -- is the 'barn' really a shop? Will it be replaced at some point by something more substantial? You'll never have enough power, but you might have too much barn. Heaters, welders, pumps, lights, brooders, all add up quick. Wife's horse barn isn't large, but 50 amps is barely enough (we have winter, so tank heaters and lights are a must). The contractors asked her what she was going to put in there. They aren't horse people, and she isn't technical. The wire and run length are very limiting, power wise.

Aluminum wire is common for large conductors. Most large breakers are 'al-cu' rated. Just need to use some 'alox' grease on the joints to keep the corrosion mites away. Look at your large gage wires in a home and you will see aluminum in most cases. It's a LOT cheaper. I think the rule of thumb is one thicker than copper.

Which makes it harder to pull in conduit. I wanted conduit, but couldn't come up with a valid reason versus direct burial. If you dig it up accidentally, you will be digging and repairing conduit too. More work. Save the money spent on the conduit and go a gage up on wire. I do appreciate adding wire later, but just go thicker now (pulling big wire is never easy) and save the conduit work. Also, conduit may lower the amperage rating versus direct burial due to the conduction of heat in still air versus soil contact. That's one detail the wire gage converters may not mention.

One other thing, code usually requires some sort of warning tape be laid above the wire, ~1ft as I recall. You can buy rolls of the plastic tape at Lowes Depot. Should be right around the conduit area. Looks like 'police no entry' tape (yellow or maybe red). Have a roll, just need to remember it when I lay some conduit (want to run a comms line from the house to the shop -- cat 5). If the guys that put my wiring in had laid that above the phone cable I wouldn't now have a copper flower on each side of some dirt work I did.

 

[dcyrilc]

Cyril-

You are spot-on regarding breaking up the pulls...I will have three 90's in the run...but I had not considered boxes...I plan on long radius 90's...

I am following a proposed fenceline, thru a corner...thus keeping areas adjacent to the house ect as open as possible for the future...plus, knowing that my utilities are within "X" feet of the fence will reduce the risk of any foolishness....

I plan to make the pulls with the main runs of pipe glued up and on the surface...start at the disconnect to the 90, thread on the 90, glue it up, then finish the pull up to the sub....close up the corner 90...throw the main runs into the trench....thread the 90's and risers on the ends (they will reduce to 3" to enter the panels) and then bury the whole mess....

I also have one pipe-crossing to contend with...the water main MUST cross over at some point, so I will start the trench from 3' deep at the disconnect for about 20 feet thru the crossover zone, and then bring it up to 24" for the rest of the run. It will be a long taper...those 20' joints of 4" don't bend much...

I only need 24" for my water around here, hard freezes are short lived in this part of the Texas, but they do happen occasionally....so that will give me a small margin of safety between the water and power trenches and sufficient depth for the waterline....

If I suddenly develop the need for a lot more electrical stuff out at the barn, I could see pulling another set of conductors.

NATURALLY....all the 90's will be large radius and I will be putting a "Pulling String" in along with the conductors, "justincase"...string and pulling soap is cheap...digging is not...

The "Big Electrical House" I have been buying from over in Hunstville has had everything I've needed so far, and their warehouse looked like the one out of "Raiders of the Lost Ark", so I am pretty sure I should have no problem getting long radius 90's and proper pulling soap etc...

Looking waaaaaay into the future, should pulling after burial fail, and I ever have to bust into that 90, a box would be a good way to restore the protection for the conductors at that point....

I will put that suggestion in my will...

The first recommendation I'm going to make is not to reduce the 4" at the panel. Come out of the panel with either one or two 3" conduits (two would be better) and bring them up into a box in the ground near the pole. Start your 4" at the box. When you run your power for the house later, that run will also start at the box closest to the house site as the condiut feeds from the service are already in to that point.

You may also want to consider a junction box at the corner where you are planning the long sweep 90 and a third box just outside the barn. Trust me, they will pay for themselves in the long run. Pun not intended.

Now as far as visitors are concerned, there are so many TBNet members here in Texas you may as well start a convention...and from my experience with Texas hospitality, you may not want to leave....

<....A CONVENTION.....Oh my...now THERE is an IDEA...!!>

So until the TBNet Convention, I will come up with a dry sack fro you to sleep on, a bowl of kibble, a cheap cigar and a wee dram for anyone who knocks on the door and asks...

That sounds like a good time in the making. Might just have to take you up on that offer somewhere down the road.:thumbsup:

I will stay cool if you stay dry...but I think I have the better chance...a cold "Shiner Bock Beer" can cure a lot of HOT...but not so much cold n' wet...

But I could be wrong...

BE SAFE!

That's why we drink a lot of coffee around here.

 

[texasjohn]

I struggled with many of these same issues when I put electricity to my shop.

I started thinking about 50 amps, but after realizing that it is extremely easy to pull that much current, decided on 100 amp service. Think welder and it easily gets you into 100 amp territory.

I agree, best to go a little long now on the materials... labor, materials and time to increase capacity later is far greater than the initial cost avoidance now by using smaller wire. I agree, cost of wire is amazing. I shopped around, discovered that Home Depot would make a bid on it along with all the other other components ... they came in cheapest, I got several different bids.

I went with AL wire... just makes the pulls a little harder but cheaper and works. I used 4 inch conduit/pipe.

I only had one long 90degree curve... plenty tough to pull wire thru it. Be sure to leave enough wire on each end to do the connections!

I found a paper cup that just fit the pipe, tied a small light string to the bottom and blew it thru the conduit with a shop vac. Then, pulled in a nylon rope for pulling the wire.

The pull starts out easy enough, but you need a helper to feed the wire properly into the conduit. At the end of the run, the pull gets really hard. Tie the rope really well to start with, no fun if it comes loose in the middle! I pulled all three conductors at once plus a nylon rope for future pulls (insurance only, no plan for future use).

 

[bdeboer]

Aight, Brian...

That Voltage Drop Calculator is pretty self-explanatory, but I am still confused....

The calculator recommends no more than a 5% voltage drop as desirable.

Running the calc with the amps and wire size as variables, here are my inputs.....

240 v
4 awg/ 6awg
50 amps / 60 amps
Single phase
Copper conductor
75C
PVC conduit
Single set of conductors
300 feet

This returns the following....

#4 awg = 3.9% OR 4.7%

#6 wire = 6.2% OR 7.4%....

Thus, to my mind, #4 awg is slightly over-engineered for a 50 amp service and near ideal for 60 amp, whereas #6 seems undersized for either service.

My question is....would the up to 2.5% more voltage drop even noticeable if I go with the smaller conductors?

Obviously I could run 2/0 wire and reduce it considerably....but my budget likes your design spec of #6 a lot more....

What do you think?

T

I personnally would probably run #4. The 2.5% probably wouldn't make that much difference on going to a #2. The 300' distance is what makes the voltage drop an issue.

It might not be a bad idea to check your voltage with a small load attached to the transformer even a light bulb. If you are on the low end of 120v+/-, I would go up a size on the wire.

If the county or whoever does electrical inspections has their own requirements follow those.

 

[terry.dinerman]

Hola!

I went through some of the same thoughts when I ran a line to my shop. I really wanted to be able to get up to 200 amps, but settled on 100 as adequate. One question I have -- is the 'barn' really a shop? Will it be replaced at some point by something more substantial? You'll never have enough power, but you might have too much barn. Heaters, welders, pumps, lights, brooders, all add up quick. Wife's horse barn isn't large, but 50 amps is barely enough (we have winter, so tank heaters and lights are a must). The contractors asked her what she was going to put in there. They aren't horse people, and she isn't technical. The wire and run length are very limiting, power wise.

Aluminum wire is common for large conductors. Most large breakers are 'al-cu' rated. Just need to use some 'alox' grease on the joints to keep the corrosion mites away. Look at your large gage wires in a home and you will see aluminum in most cases. It's a LOT cheaper. I think the rule of thumb is one thicker than copper.

Which makes it harder to pull in conduit. I wanted conduit, but couldn't come up with a valid reason versus direct burial. If you dig it up accidentally, you will be digging and repairing conduit too. More work. Save the money spent on the conduit and go a gage up on wire. I do appreciate adding wire later, but just go thicker now (pulling big wire is never easy) and save the conduit work. Also, conduit may lower the amperage rating versus direct burial due to the conduction of heat in still air versus soil contact. That's one detail the wire gage converters may not mention.

One other thing, code usually requires some sort of warning tape be laid above the wire, ~1ft as I recall. You can buy rolls of the plastic tape at Lowes Depot. Should be right around the conduit area. Looks like 'police no entry' tape (yellow or maybe red). Have a roll, just need to remember it when I lay some conduit (want to run a comms line from the house to the shop -- cat 5). If the guys that put my wiring in had laid that above the phone cable I wouldn't now have a copper flower on each side of some dirt work I did.

Buenos Noches, Jefe!

You make a lot of good points, Mojo....I am considering direct burial, aluminum wire and you are absolutely right about how the number of electrical widgets seem to grow, no matter how big a service you put in...

One thing I had NOT considered is the cooling factor of cable in contact with the ground vs in conduit....a tip of the fedora to YOU for that one...

I am fortunate enough to be out in the County...so the only things that get inspections are culverts that cross a TexDot easement, the primary power service and the septic system...other than those I am on my own...

However, tho I can do what I like, I am a pretty big believer in the wisdom of the NEC...a lot of buildings burnt to make that code...so I will be marking my lines and trying to stay as true to the code as I can...

I have a lot of good local advice...and can get a licensed spark-trician when I get stuck...so I can tackle just about anything...after I do a lot of "considering" first...

Thanks for the advice!

 

[terry.dinerman]

I personnally would probably run #4. The 2.5% probably wouldn't make that much difference on going to a #2. The 300' distance is what makes the voltage drop an issue.

It might not be a bad idea to check your voltage with a small load attached to the transformer even a light bulb. If you are on the low end of 120v+/-, I would go up a size on the wire.

If the county or whoever does electrical inspections has their own requirements follow those.

Thanks BD...

I have a lot to consider here in the design phase....the last few days has been a steep but very fruitful learning curve....I have a PILE of notes...

The next step is to take what I have learned and sit down with my local "Electrical Guru" and the Big Electrical House and start pricing things out...

The ultimate decision will, as usual, be a highwire act, balancing between the bank account and me and Precious Brides dreams...We were fortunate enough to born to work, but money comes hard so we have to be careful how we spend it....

As ever, I will keep you all informed...small payment for all of your time and consideration!

 

[terry.dinerman]

The first recommendation I'm going to make is not to reduce the 4" at the panel. Come out of the panel with either one or two 3" conduits (two would be better) and bring them up into a box in the ground near the pole. Start your 4" at the box. When you run your power for the house later, that run will also start at the box closest to the house site as the condiut feeds from the service are already in to that point.

You may also want to consider a junction box at the corner where you are planning the long sweep 90 and a third box just outside the barn. Trust me, they will pay for themselves in the long run. Pun not intended.



That sounds like a good time in the making. Might just have to take you up on that offer somewhere down the road.:thumbsup:



That's why we drink a lot of coffee around here.

Cyril-

Depending on the price between copper and aluminum etc, I may abandon the whole idea of conduit and go for direct burial...

I will have to sit down with the folks at the Big Supply House with all the research and see how it all works out...

It looks like the general consensus here on TBNet is to "go big or go home"...and I am beginning to see the wisdom in going for a larger service, maybe with direct burial and aluminum conductors for the mains....

I head home in a couple of days, and we will soon see how it all balances out...

Me and Precious Bride are going to head north direct from the airport this time, and just spend a couple of days wandering around planning....after a little "Hello Sailor" time of course....

30 years and I STILL ain't used to that woman...

 

[terry.dinerman]

Aight....

So now I need some education on Direct Burial rated cable....is that the "USE" or "SEU" cable we are talking about here?

T

 

[dcyrilc]

Aight....

So now I need some education on Direct Burial rated cable....is that the "USE" or "SEU" cable we are talking about here?

T

USE is a Driect Burial rated cable. USE stands for Underground Service enterance. I don't remember if USE is available in aluminum or just copper. We only use copper. I'm not familiar with the SEU cable so I can't help you there.

If you use USE, it has both in conduit and direct burial ratings so you could still use conduit if desired. I'm a firm believer in using conduit and would recommend it if cost allows.