Need help with Corduroy road

[josephny]

Get geo fabric, roll out, put gravel on top. How thick the gravel needs to be is based on the load.

Having an ATV with 4wd, and oversized tires, I'm surprised it can't go through? Mine can drive over stuff I can't walk through, especially if there is a vegatation mat.

We have some corduroy roads here through swamps. They plain suck when they get old. Traffic will work gravel down through. Once the logs are bursting out, you get stuck in mud holes full of logs.

The ground is well over 2 feet of peat -- soft, spongy stuff at best, sink deep into it mud at worst. With years of decaying rhodedendrum mixed in. Will geo fabric and gravel really be appropriate?

I've been riding ATVs for 30 years, in all kinds of terrain. This multi-feet deep stuff is just not possible -- there's no tranaction and the tires sink right into it such that the chassis sits on the ground.

 

[josephny]

I think you are on the right idea with the length-wise logs. That's how loggers here bridge over wet spots for their skidders if they are working a wet area outside of winter time - which is frowned upon.

They don't have to be big diameter, less than 6" will do, and if they go down in the wet mud, will take a long, long time to rot. If you have beech bark disease in your woods, I would use the young beech. It shouldn't take much to keep an ATV out of the ground. You might get by with only length wise saplings and not need the cross pieces. Definitely easier to use long saplings than short cross pieces.

I think the gravel will disappear without geotextile and a base of large (> 8") rocks below it. It would be a very slow process too and has the smell of a shovel about it :laughing:.

Dave.

So how many logs the direction of the path -- one on each side, one on each side and one in the middle, or many next to each?

I might be doing this without machinery (I don't own anything, other than a chain saw).

possible?

 

[josephny]

BTW, it's particularly hard to get any sort of fill, because this is a path made through an extremely thick wall of rhodedendrum so there's no dirt or rocks to take from the nearby (even if I had a machine to do that work) and it's way back from where a dump truck can dump anything.

 

[studor]

If you could, large rock for fill would be the way to go. The geotextile would be expensive and still require rock or gravel.
If you make the corduroy road it will work -- when it starts to sink, you just put more logs on top -- it will last a long time and really does not need much to hold it together. In some places around here the original corduroy road still exists under the gravel and pulverized road that has been created since. Now is a good time to do it -- no bugs, logs can be moved easier and solid place to stand. I made a number of corduroy crossings on my place about five years ago after bellying out the ATV a few too many times. :thumbsup:
I used cedar, cut long side pieces, then laid and spiked logs on either end and just filled in the "frames" with loose logs. Once in place I drove the atv across them a few times in the spring to push them down then drove the tractor across to make sure they were "seated" in the mud.

 

[inveresk]

See attached.

Mud Mats | Nilex

 

[dave1949]

So how many logs the direction of the path -- one on each side, one on each side and one in the middle, or many next to each?

I might be doing this without machinery (I don't own anything, other than a chain saw).

possible?

Logs side by side for the desired width, unless the path is extremely straight, then you might be able to make two parallel sections and let your ATV straddle the middle. I would alternate butts and tops so they fit to fill the space. Mixed lengths would be better than uniform lengths.

Or, there is this Howe & Howe Technologies :laughing:
Forget about making a trail.
Dave.

 

[Brandon1107]

Geo grid does work extremely well, I have used in several situations at an area I have on the beach as well as oilfield access roads. It is not cheap but I calculate cost to man hours even on my own individual projects and it comes out way ahead. If you can find lots of free labor you may be better off with the cord. road but that does not seem to be the case. Green cement that is recycled for road base works excellent in these situations, talk to the local ready-mix companies and see if it is available. These two in conjunction will make a nearly indestructible road but it might run you overbudget. If the dump trucks can't get any closer you might want to consider improving your road to this location, or renting a large articulated FEL to shuttle material. Ok I'm done spending your money. Good luck, and embrace the challenge!

 

[dawoodwa]

We have put geo fabric down with a layer of surge stone then crusher run rock on top thru a creek bottom which closely resembled a swamp. The road held up log trucks. Still use it today for farm equipment.

 

[Shazbat]

The fellow that owns/built Glacier Gardens in Juneau AK built a vast amount of corduroy roads going up a steep and wet mountainside, he seemed awfully willing to talk about the whole process when we were there, it might not hurt to contact them.

Their website has the phone #'s.

 

[josephny]

So much great info, I'm even more confused

I have to hire all the work out -- whether that's labor or machine rental/operation, so it's a straightforward financial analysis.

I've been googling geofabric, geotextile and geogrid.

It looks like the geofabric won't work because the ground is very rough and instructions are to make it smooth before using and then cover with layers of stone.

I can't find info on how geogrids work. Can they simply be put down on top of rough, wet, peat/mud without sinking and without covering with rock? If so, it would mean finding a source for the stuff, and then getting a guy with a machine to shuttle the stuff back into the woods and lay it in place.

Is this making sense?

 

[inveresk]

Nilex have a great technical department. If you google their nearest office and ring, you'd get better than a guess which is all I can offer.

I would imagine you'd need to do some grading but this should be possible by rolling out the matt and working from on top of it, much like in the attached photograph. This should allow you to do some grading without getting your feet wet.

 

[josephny]

Nilex have a great technical department. If you google their nearest office and ring, you'd get better than a guess which is all I can offer.

I would imagine you'd need to do some grading but this should be possible by rolling out the matt and working from on top of it, much like in the attached photograph. This should allow you to do some grading without getting your feet wet.

Great suggestion. Looks like they only have 1 office in USA, in Denver.

If the matt in the picture a Nilex product? I looked at their website and didn't see anything that looked like it.

It would be great to be able to just plop something down on top of the muck-mud-water-peat and walk/drive over it.

 

[inveresk]

Great suggestion. Looks like they only have 1 office in USA, in Denver.

If the matt in the picture a Nilex product? I looked at their website and didn't see anything that looked like it.

It would be great to be able to just plop something down on top of the muck-mud-water-peat and walk/drive over it.

I didn't realize Nilex were a Canadian company. I guess makes sense, they probably work a lot on terrain in the tundra.

The illustration was taken from this site which I got from a link on the Nilex web site. Terrafix is a Canadian company too though.

http://www.terrafixgeo.com/content/?id=145

 

[SPYDERLK]

Get geo fabric, roll out, put gravel on top. How thick the gravel needs to be is based on the load.

Having an ATV with 4wd, and oversized tires, I'm surprised it can't go through? Mine can drive over stuff I can't walk through, especially if there is a vegatation mat.

We have some corduroy roads here through swamps. They plain suck when they get old. Traffic will work gravel down through. Once the logs are bursting out, you get stuck in mud holes full of logs.

The ground is well over 2 feet of peat -- soft, spongy stuff at best, sink deep into it mud at worst. With years of decaying rhodedendrum mixed in. Will geo fabric and gravel really be appropriate?

I've been riding ATVs for 30 years, in all kinds of terrain. This multi-feet deep stuff is just not possible -- there's no tranaction and the tires sink right into it such that the chassis sits on the ground.

I absolutely agree with slowzuki. For carrying light to moderate load over mush the geotextile fabric and gravel will do it for you. The fabric prevents the gravel from being swallowed and essentially forming a mud slurry. The combination with gravel segregated greatly spreads the force so that you dont apply intense pressure to the unstable ground. A geotextile roll is about 16 feet wide and the length is probably 300 ft so youd just need one. Youll have to spread the gravel on it ahead of you as you go esp if you do it with a loader. Youll need at least 4" to support the loader front tires. This is more than a couple truck loads considering 10 X 300'. Itll last - wont rot like a corduroy road. Itll get the situation under control. Youll have to add gravel and some sand occasionaly.
larry

 

[inveresk]

I absolutely agree with slowzuki. For carrying light to moderate load over mush the geotextile fabric and gravel will do it for you. The fabric prevents the gravel from being swallowed. The combination with gravel greatly spreads the force so that you dont apply intense pressure to the unstable ground. A geotextile roll is about 16 feet wide and the length is probably 300 ft so youd just need one. Youll have to spread the gravel on it ahead of you as you go esp if you do it with a loader. Youll need at least 4" to support the loader front tires. This is more than a couple truck loads considering 10 X 300'. Itll last - wont rot like a corduroy road. Itll get the situation under control. Youll have to add gravel and some sand occasionaly.
larry

I agree. Certainly worth getting a roll and trying it. It worked locally for a soft spot on my road where I was up to my axles in mud on the tractor.

 

[josephny]

This is sounding like a nice solution.

So I'd get a loader in to:
Smooth out the path
lay the fabric
bring back and lay down rocks to fill 4" deep, 5' wide, 300' long (500 cu-ft, or 18 cu-yds).

Does my analysis make sense:

A guy with a loader/excavator costs between $600-750 per day.

I believe that stone is sold by the ton, at around $10 per ton delivered. At 1.25 tons/cu-yd, that's 22.5 tons, or $225. (Don't know if I should use small or large gravel or small, medium or large stone).

Don't know how much the fabric costs, but 1 roll sure does sounds like it'll do (I assume I can cut the stuff easily to my desired width). Anyone have a link to prices?

If the above is correct, the only other variable is how many days and how many guys (other than the machine operator) I'll need. Any suggestions?

Just so I'm certain I'm communicating this correctly, the ground I'm talking about is mostly peat. Walking on it in some places I can sink shin deep. Other places are okay. This fabric with stone/gravel on top won't just sink in when pressure is applied (by foot or light vehicle --ATV)?

Thank you!

 

[inveresk]

I recently bought 4 rolls of medium weight unwoven and it was about $550 per roll delivered. It's 15 feet wide x 300 feet long.

You might want to go a bit wider than 5'.

I got the spec for the rock topping from Nilex. Ring them and they'll help with the geotex spec and the topping.

No, it wont sink. You need enough stone on top so it properly ballasts the textile in which case it will act as a raft and you won't know there's a soft spot there.

Don't skimp on the stone or you'll have problems

 

[inveresk]

Sorry, missed your other points.

I laid my own and spread the rock with the tractor and loader and a box blade. With a good machine man, I doubt you'll need anyone else but it will be difficult if you're trying to lay stone less wide than his bucket. A foot or two wider than the bucket is ideal for obvious reasons.

My spec called for crush over pit run about 8" thick but it's a full on drive. You'll likely get away with less.

 

[SPYDERLK]

This is sounding like a nice solution.

So I'd get a loader in to:
Smooth out the path
lay the fabric
bring back and lay down rocks to fill 4" deep, 5' wide, 300' long (500 cu-ft, or 18 cu-yds).

Just so I'm certain I'm communicating this correctly, the ground I'm talking about is mostly peat. Walking on it in some places I can sink shin deep. Other places are okay. This fabric with stone/gravel on top won't just sink in when pressure is applied (by foot or light vehicle --ATV)?

Thank you!

Think snowshoes. a man on a foot exerts 5psi or so. 4" gravel on an inextensible fabric exerts only 0.3psi or less. Then when an intense weight is applied to the composite, that weight adds to it but the effect of the applied weight is spread onto a much larger area. You will be fine with light vehicles in places where you dont sink in on foot ... and may be fine even in the softest areas. Its possible those areas will require a little thicker gravel to spread weight out further. A mud mat over those problem spots would certainly work, but would cost more than thicker gravel. As inveresk said you will need to go wider than 5' gravel -- you dont want to travel too near the edge because force spreading properties are not nearly as good there.
larry

 

[josephny]

Ah, I'm starting to get the physics of it!

With a 15' wide roll, if I can cut it in half, I'll have 7.5' of textile.

While it's impossible to predict future needs, I'd be thrilled with just being able to get my basically 4' wide ATV over it. But, if it's easier to do a 6 or 7' wide road, so be it.

I like the idea of a single machine and operator being able to handle this.

I'm really only trying to get through this -- it doesn't have to be pretty or perfectly dry.

Do you guys think a single machine can lay 400' of fabric (filling in a whole or two here and there) and then put rock on top in a single day? Probably not if the rock is being hauled from a pile 3000' away.

So $550 for fabric, $250 in stone (I think), $1,400 for 2 days machine/operator = $2,200. Yikes! Wife will not be happy.