Pole barn sub panel

[mx842]

Ok from what advise I have received.
1 I will need a bigger box with main breaker since this box only has six spaces.
2 extend conduit into box.
3 1 ground rod 8 ft long.
If you think of any thing I missed let me know.The wife and I have to pull our camper back from cape may this weekend,so I won't
be starting until 9/27/11 on the fixes. Thank you.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Like grsthegreat said get a bigger box for sure. You never know what you may want to do next year and from what I have seen you can get a larger 100 amp box with more spaces in it cheaper than you can the smaller boxes. Later on if you want to add a little more amps you can either pull the old stuff and run larger wire or add a couple more strands of wire the same size and double it up so you don't lose everything. Although you probably should check with the guys here that know more than I do about doubling up because just because I have done that in the past and didn't burn down anything down does not mean it's okay to do it this way. It could just mean I was lucky so please by all means check first.

Your thread has been very helpful and I have a zillion questions myself about my project but I guess I need to do my own thread rather than hyjack yours.LOL

 

[mx842]

ya, you got robbed alrignt. i hate some of these scrap yards around me. I finally found one place that allows me to verify scale accuracy before they weigh using a gallon jug of water (known weight) or a set of marked weights they have there. The last time i scrapped out my wire pile, i striped it all (have a striping tool that makes short work of it) and i weighed it at home. I took it in ad their weights were within a few pounds of mine..so all was well. And i took home aprox $2,400 in cash. Mind you copper was in the $2.20 -$2.40 per pound range

Yeah their were some pretty shady stuff going on a few years back. We had 7 or 8 places we could carry scrap to but I think they were union because they all were just alike. A lot of people who sold scrap didn't like how they were doing but what can you do.

I used to switch around from place to place because sometimes they would use the bait and switch trick. That would be when a new guy shows up they would give him a pretty fair weight just to get him hooked then as time goes on they would start a little at a time skimming off the top so you wouldn't notice as much. Finally the scrap haulers got a union of themselves and started doing what you did weigh before they went across their scales so they knew what they had on board. Once they knew for sure they were cutting the deck they got weights and measures involved and those boys busted their azz and really hard to where a couple of them went out of business or bankrupted then changed their name.

I remember there was one really big company probably one of the biggest on the east coast that got hammered really hard but they just paid the fines and once it was over it was back to business as usual and shortly after that the owners sold the business and now it is run by different people. I don't know if they are any different because I never go there anymore.

There are a lot of smaller dealers that have popped up that give fair prices and measures and they get my business now. I never liked the idea of driving up on a truck scale with a couple hundred pounds of anything it just seems like there is too many ways they can short you that way. I don't deal with those guys anymore I like to see my stuff on a scale right in front of me. They may still be able to skim a little but at least they have to work a little harder.LOL

I know, I know this is way off topic.....sorry!

 

[grsthegreat]

Sounds like you are on the right track. Like grsthegreat said get a bigger box for sure. You never know what you may want to do next year and from what I have seen you can get a larger 100 amp box with more spaces in it cheaper than you can the smaller boxes. Later on if you want to add a little more amps you can either pull the old stuff and run larger wire or add a couple more strands of wire the same size and double it up so you don't lose everything. Although you probably should check with the guys here that know more than I do about doubling up because just because I have done that in the past and didn't burn down anything down does not mean it's okay to do it this way. It could just mean I was lucky so please by all means check first.

Your thread has been very helpful and I have a zillion questions myself about my project but I guess I need to do my own thread rather than hyjack yours.LOL

doubling up or as we call it "running parallel runs" is totally legal .

 

[ultrarunner]

doubling up or as we call it "running parallel runs" is totally legal .

Are their exemptions for really large applications...

At the plant I worked at many years ago... we had a power system that was an emergency tie in to the grid and I had commented the wire required must be huge and later found that it had a special buss where the individual cables were connected in parallel so no double lugging or anything like that.

 

[grsthegreat]

On really large services (ive installed some 3000 and 5000 amp services) the bus bars are set up to receive sometimes 6 runs of wire on each phase. We will run 6 parallel runs of 4" pvc pipe to transformer and each pipe will have 4 runs of say 1,000MCM copper wire. Then each lug in the panel would get one wire from each conduit (phased together). This was the ONLY way to get enough amperage to the panel. Each wire would be rated for 500-600 amps x 6 wires (or more for larger panels).

The only thing you have to do in parallel runs are to keep each set of runs and their ground together in each pipe. You cant run all the hots in one pipe and all the neutrals in the other for instance.

 

[ultrarunner]

On really large services (ive installed some 3000 and 5000 amp services) the bus bars are set up to receive sometimes 6 runs of wire on each phase. We will run 6 parallel runs of 4" pvc pipe to transformer and each pipe will have 4 runs of say 1,000MCM copper wire. Then each lug in the panel would get one wire from each conduit (phased together). This was the ONLY way to get enough amperage to the panel. Each wire would be rated for 500-600 amps x 6 wires (or more for larger panels).

The only thing you have to do in parallel runs are to keep each set of runs and their ground together in each pipe. You cant run all the hots in one pipe and all the neutrals in the other for instance.

Thanks for the clarification... I do remember lots of conduit runs.

 

[crbr]

Good thread...

 

[ducks13]

It sounds like lots of people will disagree but you are not required by code to have a main breaker. You are allowed 6 switches to disconnect a service to a structure or an outside feeder like you have. The rest of your evaluation of what you should do is correct.

 

[MikeInMaine]

You have gotten some good advice.

Here's one way to put it all together. There are also other ways of fixing your issues, but wanting to use what you already have, this is how I'd do it:

If 6 spaces is all you think you'll need, then purchase a 2-space, 70 amp box and put a 2-pole 50 amp breaker in it. This will be your Main Breaker. Connect it you your PVC conduit with a male fitting & locknut, or a coupling with a box adapter.

Then attach your 6-space panel either above or to the side of your main breaker box, using the largest offset nipple that the box has a knockout for. Feed your 6-space panel from the 50 amp breaker.

Be sure to mark your neutral conductor white or gray, and the ground green. This is usually done with colored electrical tape, and is supposed to cover all of the visible wire, not just the ends. The neutral doesn't need a connection in the small box. It can run straight through to the neutral bar in your 6-space panel. The ground from the house, the ground from the 8' rod, and the ground going to the 6-space panel should all connect in the box, with the box also bonded (connected) to the grounds via a screw or strap that comes with the box.

If you are going to place the 6-space panel over the 2-space box, the top of the box may require a hub in order to put the offset nipple on the top. This is a nice way to do it. 1-1/4" is a common size.

In the 6-space panel, the neutral connections must go on the neutral bar, and the grounds must go to a separate ground bar. This is because it has been correctly fed with 4 wires. Make sure the neutral bar is not bonded to the enclosure. Make sure the ground bar is bonded to the enclosure. If the 6-space panel didn't come with both a neutral bar and a ground bar, you can buy a ground bar and install it for your grounds.

Oh, I forgot, before you start, turn off the power and double check to make sure it's safe! (I know you know that, but it's always good to hear that advice over and over.)
Best of luck,
Mike

Ok from what advise I have received.
1 I will need a bigger box with main breaker since this box only has six spaces.
2 extend conduit into box.
3 1 ground rod 8 ft long.
If you think of any thing I missed let me know.The wife and I have to pull our camper back from cape may this weekend,so I won't
be starting until 9/27/11 on the fixes. Thank you.

 

[grsthegreat]

It sounds like lots of people will disagree but you are not required by code to have a main breaker. You are allowed 6 switches to disconnect a service to a structure or an outside feeder like you have. The rest of your evaluation of what you should do is correct.

you know...your absolutely correct. Its been so lone since ive used a small panel, that i have forgotten that little clause.

You can actually feed a small garage with say 2 circuits and use simple switched as disconnects. Thats the problem with modern times. You forget about the old easier lazier days. In the past 10 years or so i have never installed less than 50 amps to a small building, and they always want welders, air compressors, 20 outlets...bla bla bla... oh and heat. I usually have 16-24 space panels installed.

Gone are the 6 space days.