7018 with a AC buzz box.

[rankrank1]

You know I would have bet big money against this statement! But I would have lost! I never imagined a little 40-year old POS like this would out weld my $6,000.00 Miller machine. Way less splatter, and less than half of the smoke, now how does that work?:confused2:

Well I do have 3 theories
a) Theory #1: I pulled the volt/amp curves for your Miller 330ABP as well as for my vintage Miller Thunderbolt buzzbox (too lazy to look for actual curve for your Century). Anway The curves were remarkably similiar in overall peak and minumum values - yet the 330ABP curve is a bit steeper meaning the volts rise and fall a little quicker on the 330ABP. Messer markets the 80TAC rods as one of the easiest rods to run on low level AC powersource welders. Maybe whatever Messer puts in the rods to help stabilize the arc just can not take the quicker volt increases without smoke and spatter like you experienced on the 330ABP.
b) Theory #2: Was the High Frequency switch left on on the 330ABP or is the switch faulty and staying on even though you thought you turned it off? Hi Frequency AC would weld quite a bit differently than general old 60 hertz AC. Hi Frequency might be incompatible with the arc stabilers that Messer puts in the 80TAC causing the smoke and spatter.
c) Theory #3: Does the 330 ABP have a square wave function? Was this switch left on or is the switch faulty? Square Wave AC is useful in tig welding but square wave is different than the plain old regular Sine Wave AC that would come out of a low level transformer like the Century or Thunderbolt. Again are the arc stabilers that Messer puts in there incompatible with square wave AC?

Thats all I have in the way of possible theories of why the Miller 330ABP did not stick weld well with the 80TAC rods yet the Century (and my Thunderbolt) seem to run them okay.

P.S. (It is nice to see that you were able to experience similar results to my very limited expereince with the 80TAC rods on your vintage Century buzzbox - except your welds look much better than mine).

 

[Shield Arc]

The 330 has been retired for years, it was giving me trouble, that is when I bought the Dynasty 300. Which is what I used last time I ran the 80T on AC.

I was thinking it might have something to do with the volt amp curve.

 

[monckywrench]

A 330 would yield nice money in copper, and parts to keep other 330s alive.

Pedals go for 150 all day, while the other parts fit a variety of Millers.

 

[rankrank1]

The 330 has been retired for years, it was giving me trouble, that is when I bought the Dynasty 300. Which is what I used last time I ran the 80T on AC.

I was thinking it might have something to do with the volt amp curve.

Or both volt/amp curve and frequency.
a) I looked up the volt/amp curve for the Dynasty and it is drastically different than the two transformer Millers that I previously looked up. In short the Dynasty is much hotter with a much flatter volt/amp curve. So my guess is the extra power is just too much for all the arc stabilizers that Messer puts in those 80TAC rods which are intended to help the lower level welding machines. The extra power of the Dynasty creates lots of smoke and spatter.
b) Also the frequency for the Dynasty listed 250 hertz which is over 4 times the 60 hertz that a lower level AC transformer would produce. I imagine the higher frequency wreaks havoc too with all the extra arc stabilizers put in the 80TAC rods by Messer.

Regardless, This has been an interesting discussion and re-inforces my opinion that it can be quite helpful to match rod brands, type, and sizes to the welding machine power source that will be used run them. This philosophy is really equally relevant on a low cost cheapie machine or a high dollar top of the line welding machine.

 

[Shield Arc]

Yes it's amazing what they can do with welding rod now a days. What cracks me up is how different brands of rod run differently on different brands of inverter welders. My SA-200s could care less what brand rod you run with them! I'm really impressed with ESAB rod, soon as all my Lincoln rod is burned up I don't think I'll buy any more. The Lincoln 5P or 5P-Plus 6010 is unstable at low amps, likes to finger nail, and smokes too much, where as ESAB's 10P or 10P-Plus is very stable at low amps, and hardly smokes at all. I also like the looks of ESAB's Atom Arc over the looks of Lincoln's Excalibur.

 

[JB4310]

Had my almost 40 year old buzz box dug out of the back of the barn. Oh that thing did not like being woke up:laughing:! I thought it was going to blow up when I turned it on! It sounded so bad I wouldn't touch it without welding gloves on:shocked:. But she moaned and groaned her way through a few welds. 1/8 inch ESAB 7018 right out of the oven, and a weld on DC for comparison. Then a weld with Hobart 335A 1/8 inch 6011.

That would be a great welder for the 1 machine small to medium size shop.

What's that lock lever? to lock the dial settings??

If you really find the sweet spot and don't want to lose it :laughing:

Also I notice yours has the same max amps on dc as well as ac,
My thunderbolt does not go as high on dc as ac ???

225 ac but only 150 dc, I don't understand that.

JB

 

[Shield Arc]

Also I notice yours has the same max amps on dc as well as ac,

You know, I noticed that too the other day when the grandson brought it in the shop. I was going to mention it to rankrank1 but I forgot. He knows more about welding machines than I do.

 

[monckywrench]

225 ac but only 150 dc, I don't understand that.

Cheaper rectifier. Saves money for the maker, differentiates from more expensive machines.

 

[rankrank1]

You know, I noticed that too the other day when the grandson brought it in the shop. I was going to mention it to rankrank1 but I forgot. He knows more about welding machines than I do.

Ah good catch. I did not even notice that this was the upgraded model from Century over the standard entry level model. Miller also made an upgraded Thunderbolt in 300 AC and 200 DC and I am sure Lincoln did too in the venerable tombstone although I do not know the specs off hand.

I can explain some of it
a) First and foremost every machine is desgned for a price point so the entry level models were naturally cheapest and most common.
b) Also the entry level machines sorta followed in the footsteps of the early Forney welders and Marquette welders which were targeted for households that only had 60 amp total household service. 100 amp household service and 200 amp household service are common now, but that was not always the case. Most of the entry level units will draw less than 40 amps at WOT - leaving 20 amps ar so in reserve to run the refrigerator and a few lights in the house was the logic of the time period.
c) The upgraded models will draw more power.
d) The upgraded models also cost more.

Lastly, Just because this Century is exactly even on AC and DC output (250 AC and 250 DC) does not mean it is better than say the upgraded Miller Thunderbolt would be which is (300 AC and 200 DC).

Really it is all about the volt/amp curve and duty cycles.
To explain further and taking it to an extreme case: A manufacturer could build the tranformer such that it drastically reduces the OCV (Open circuit voltage) to less than ideal while simultaneously artificially increasing the amp output so that it appears very impressive on paper. While the amp output looks impressive on paper the real world use of the welder will be frustrating because initial arc strikes would be a royal pain and quite difficult. Contrarily a different manufactuer can optimize the the OCV which could sacrifice the total amp output to a lower level and it would appear less powerful, but the real world use of the welder will be much more enjoyable even though it appears to be less powerful. (If you have ever driven a car that is high in horsepower yet very low in torque then you know what I mean. I prefer the best balance of both horsepower and torque in an engine).

Another trick is to sacrifice duty cycle. Yeah it can do it at extreme levels but not for very long if the components are undersized.

A loose comparison but to keep this tractor related: A welder is sorta like a tractor/vehicle engine. An engine can be built for horsepower, it can be built for Torque, or it can be built for longetivity. You want all 3 simultaneously and it will cost more.

A lincoln AC 250/DC 250 Idealarc is totally diffent class of machine than say this Century which is also an AC 250/ DC 250.
The idealarc cost much more to buy when new, the idealarc also has an even bigger appetite for input supply power by almost double, and the idealarc has a much higher duty cycle. That said there is a good reason for all of it.