In Floor Heat. What do you have?

   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #1  

TroySD

Bronze Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
63
So I got the quote back for the in floor heat from Nibco. They quote everything you need and will give you a layout if you buy it from them, but they don't provide a heat source.

So the question is:

Do you go with a water heater as the heat source or would you use a tankless electric boiler? Gas is not an option, electric options only.

Also, how big of a water heater does it take to generate 41000 btu's/ hour?
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #2  
So much is detail-dependent, but I will give it a shot. First, some assumptions and background so we are on the same page. I am guessing you are from SD, similar climate to mine in SE Minnesota. My designer shoots for 25 btu per square foot in our climate. A little less than that is OK if it is a shop (not living space where you want it warmer and very consistant). My current shop is about 1100 square feet. Theoretically it should be satisfied with 26000 btu source. I have a 40 gallon LP fired power vent water heater (standard tank type) installed, I believe it is 40,000 btu. That works fine and I run it fairly low all winter (50 degrees), and it is very cheap to operate. There is only 1 inch of extruded polystyrene under the slab, should be 2" really.
I am currently building a new shop, on a farm we bought a few years ago, with the intention of moving there soon, another year or so. The slab is done and the heating system is designed so I can be specific. 2100 square feet total, 3 inches of foam under the slab. Two zones with possibly different temps desired, so two controllers and two pumps. 25 btu per sq foot means 52000 btu input needed. Tubing is always placed on 1 foot spacing, and 1/2" tube should be limited to 300 feet max. Try to keep all runs on the same manifold approx the same length, or within 5% of each other. I purposely left the tubing further from the outside walls and doors, like 3 feet away, in order to use the normal somewhat insulating characteristic of concrete to limit the amount of heat that will be drawn out of the wall at the slab edge. We will see how that works. There should be a slightly colder region along the walls, but typically there is "stuff" setting along the walls anyway, so I don't think I will notice the slight difference. This is probably stuff you already know. I have chosen a tankless water heater (not a boiler) to power this system. It's a Rheem modulating standard venting (not condensing, although if the price was right I would prefer condensing for venting convenience and efficiency). It is modulating between 11,000 btu and 199,000 btu. My system designer says these work out just fantasticaly and they self control very slick. The set-point controller (thermostat-like device) calls for heat, which triggers the pump. When the pump runs, cooler water begins entering the tankless heater, which causes it to ignite and modulate according to the incoming water temp compared to the user-set-desired output. So upon firing up it probably modulates fairly high initially, somewhat depending on flow rate too, and then as the cycle continues and the water coming into the heater is gradually warming up, the heater internal controller will modulate back on the gas flow and reduce the btu to continue to satsify the incoming versus outgoing temp differential. When the set point controller is satisfied and turns off the pump, the heater detects no flow and shuts off. this is how it was explained to me, I have not plumbed much above-slab stuff yeat so have not experienced it yet.
So hopefully some of that does you some good. To specifically try to answer your questions, electric boilers are supposed to be very slick, but I wonder why people use boilers when you are trying to produce only 110-120 degree water. I have seen the boiler based diagrams and they then seem to need a mixing valve to temper the water down from the heated temp to the 110 range. ?????????? why heat it higher than you need to, then temper it back down ???????? In my limited understanding, the water heater is set to a more appropriate temp to begin with, like the 110 range you want to send into the slab. As far as tank typ vs tankless, I am going to be glad to be moving to the tankless type. Less total water in the system. Less space taken up. No standing water to keep hot even if the floor is not calling for heat (much of the Fall and Spring). Modulating feature seems to be made for this application.
People have had bad experiences with tankless heaters due to mineral buildup. In this case, the water goes in, stays in, no new supply of minerals brought in everytime you open the tap, so no buildup.
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #3  
I am in the same boat you are (no gas). I just finished the 2nd house for myself using heated floors, never build another with out it. Now I am getting ready to build small 1000 sq' shop. Will be using this Boiler Hydro-Shark 3™ Electric Modulating Boilers - FarmTek .
Used the same one, sized for the house, in this house and love it. They are modulating so you can go bigger if you want.
I don't know how much you want to build yourself but I built my own system similar to this Tek-Pro Radiant Heating Boiler Panels - FarmTek for a lot cheaper.
Thermostat I used Floor Heating/Hydronic Thermostat - Pump Tickler - FarmTek

BTW I did not buy from this supplier, just used for illustration.

Jingerken, keep us informed about the outcome of leaving the loops away from the walls. I insulate the edge of the slab and put the loops a little closer at the walls.
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #4  
On ghe process of getting my system design for the new house, I am lind of a newbie on this. You can find a lot of reading on http://www.radiantcompany.com/
I have bought 1 manifold for them, but brokeage fee to canda were like 150$, so i will use a canadian supplier next time. But there os a lot of basic usedil info on the web site.

Also this forums have tremandous information on boiler room and floor heating , pumps, controls, ect..... I am a active member out there:
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/forums/viewforum/21/

Have a good day
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #5  
So I got the quote back for the in floor heat from Nibco. They quote everything you need and will give you a layout if you buy it from them, but they don't provide a heat source.

So the question is:

Do you go with a water heater as the heat source or would you use a tankless electric boiler? Gas is not an option, electric options only.

Also, how big of a water heater does it take to generate 41000 btu's/ hour?


"Size" is only important with the number of watts the unit draws, not anything to do with gallons.

Water heater are much less restrictive and cheaper. A standard water heater is 4500 watts which is about 15,000 BTU. You can wire the elements to run at the same time and get just over 30,000 BTU.

Flow rate is a very important consideration so, if you use the instant unit make sure it's not restrictive or plan on using an injection loop with two pumps.

How many BTU's per square foot are you trying to get with your 41,000 BTU figure?
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have?
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Of course I left all the details :thumbsup: Kind of a blind question then without knowing the details....so here we go.

The quote I got back is setup as follows:

1500 sq ft
7 loops over 2 zones
BTUs/hour 40680 output
watts/hour 11797
kw/hour 11.91
Pipe Feet 1750
Pipe Centers 12

Assuming 2" Foam Board (holy crap on the price of that stuff BTW)
R38 Ceiling
R19 Walls
R10 Sub Floor Insulation
Winter low temp of -20.

Garage is going to be 50'x30' with 12x30 being some living area and laundry.



I'm looking at both the water heater method or a Hydro Shark setup.

I appreciate all the input, doesn't seem like the guys at Menards have much knowledge...
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #8  
Troy, even if you do not have access to HP natural gas, I would consider a propane tankless heater as a backup to your electric and you would need either a tiny generator or a battery backup to get you through any potential power outages. It just seems awfully risky having to depend totally on grid power for your heat in winter ? Doesn't that scare the bejeebas out of you ?

Depending on the cost for electric, even propane may not be in a bad position ? I'm guessing you must have done the math on this, but here in Michigan, electricity is the most expensive form of heating - period. The utilities have stepped rates with the first X units being at price A, then after that it is price B up to limit Y, then price C up to limit Z etc, etc.. Clear as mud...

I do know that my wife and step daughter went a bit overboard with the electric heaters in 2 rooms last winter for a single month and my bill was $500 for just that 1 month (usual winter utility bills are $70-80 since I heat with wood). After that I carried the electric heaters to the storage facility the next day...
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #9  
Garage is going to be 50'x30' with 12x30 being some living area and laundry.



I'm looking at both the water heater method or a Hydro Shark setup.

I appreciate all the input, doesn't seem like the guys at Menards have much knowledge...

I have a similar bldg. 40x80x16. 14' of that is a two floor living space. All heated hydronically. Around here elec. is VERY $$$ and I have never known a happy propane customer (dealer wise). So, I have a Bock oil fired HWH that has enough output to heat it all, but it is my standby. I use a wood boiler, indoor type that I could not be happier with. It also provides DHW and the oil HWH has not used a drop of oil in 2+ months. I'm only on my 2nd season with this set up and last year I went thru about 8 cords, it will be less this year because I've lowered the shop temps to 60deg, my wood is fully dry, and the temps have been easy this winter.
I'd be worried about power loss without a pretty good sized gen. sitting there ready to go. And as much $$ as that underslab insulation is, don't skimp there!
 
   / In Floor Heat. What do you have? #10  
So I got the quote back for the in floor heat from Nibco. They quote everything you need and will give you a layout if you buy it from them, but they don't provide a heat source.

So the question is:

Do you go with a water heater as the heat source or would you use a tankless electric boiler? Gas is not an option, electric options only.

Also, how big of a water heater does it take to generate 41000 btu's/ hour?
I too have asked my self this question.
I did a bunch of research and this is my basic assumption.
An instant hot water heater that would be large enough to handle my needs ( 1800+ sf) would need to be a 240v unit and would could pull up to 60 amps.
This would be to much energy consumption, considering the unit could be on all the time in the winter.
I have come to the conclusion that it would work better and be more efficient to use a large regular hot water tank and super insulate it.
This would heat a mass of water and then shut off. The radiant system could use some of the water in the tank without having the elements on all the time.
I plan on eventually supplementing the tank with solar hot water.
 

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