westcliffe01
Veteran Member
You are going to have to put heat in as fast as the radiant system takes it out and that just doesn't seem feasible (or cost effective) on electric and then you have to consider what you do when the power goes out.
In Floor Heat. What do you have?
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Raspy
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Troy,
You are in a real dilemma. Electric is way too expensive, natural gas is not available, propane has a lot of problems with dealers and cost and tanks and safety.
In my situation (5000 ft elevation in Nevada, I don't like propane and I won't pay for electric heat) I decided to go with thermal solar backed up with an oil fired boiler for my hydronic radiant system.
Also, remember that with a number of thermostats you can zone heat and leave large areas off if not being used, or turned way down. So your actual heated square footage is way less than the total of the house.
I plan to let the solar do all it can during the day and supplement it in the evenings or early mornings. I'm not building a large enough system to carry the entire load and will end up with, probably, 3 to 6 panels and 360 gallons of storage. Another benefit of the solar is that it will provide 100% of the water heating load for a large percentage of the year.
We will also be heating with a wood stove and have a lot of oak, desert peach and pinion available. The radiant will take the edge off the cold floor and the wood will provide the ambiance. The solar will run all day and store in the slab. The night will benefit from the 360 gallon solar storage and the early morning will get an oil blast.
If there is a power failure, the wood stove can carry the heating load. Our small diesel generator can operate the boiler, solar, a few lights and the fridge while being fueled from the storage tanks. We have 600 gallons of stored fuel oil so the heat and generator can run for months.
My biggest concern is the cost of fuel. I plan to buy it whenever there is a price dip. Also, we can haul what we need, so we're not dependent on a particular fuel supplier.
If nothing else, maybe you should consider solar to back up a simple electric system. This way you could get started and see how it goes. Also, you could get by with fewer BTUs, especially with zone heating, so consider the simple electric water heater as I mentioned in my earlier post. Tankless systems seem problematic to me with a lot of restriction and high cost.
You are in a real dilemma. Electric is way too expensive, natural gas is not available, propane has a lot of problems with dealers and cost and tanks and safety.
In my situation (5000 ft elevation in Nevada, I don't like propane and I won't pay for electric heat) I decided to go with thermal solar backed up with an oil fired boiler for my hydronic radiant system.
Also, remember that with a number of thermostats you can zone heat and leave large areas off if not being used, or turned way down. So your actual heated square footage is way less than the total of the house.
I plan to let the solar do all it can during the day and supplement it in the evenings or early mornings. I'm not building a large enough system to carry the entire load and will end up with, probably, 3 to 6 panels and 360 gallons of storage. Another benefit of the solar is that it will provide 100% of the water heating load for a large percentage of the year.
We will also be heating with a wood stove and have a lot of oak, desert peach and pinion available. The radiant will take the edge off the cold floor and the wood will provide the ambiance. The solar will run all day and store in the slab. The night will benefit from the 360 gallon solar storage and the early morning will get an oil blast.
If there is a power failure, the wood stove can carry the heating load. Our small diesel generator can operate the boiler, solar, a few lights and the fridge while being fueled from the storage tanks. We have 600 gallons of stored fuel oil so the heat and generator can run for months.
My biggest concern is the cost of fuel. I plan to buy it whenever there is a price dip. Also, we can haul what we need, so we're not dependent on a particular fuel supplier.
If nothing else, maybe you should consider solar to back up a simple electric system. This way you could get started and see how it goes. Also, you could get by with fewer BTUs, especially with zone heating, so consider the simple electric water heater as I mentioned in my earlier post. Tankless systems seem problematic to me with a lot of restriction and high cost.
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
Doing the math, I get 12kwh x 24hr x 30d = 8640kwh/month. Here in MI, my delivered electricity rate is about $0.11/kwh so that would yield a bill of $950/month ??? It seems to me that Corn or Pellets or Diesel fuel or HHO would be a lot cheaper than that. It is not a high heat rate (compared to 150k btu furnaces) so it will run with a high duty cycle in that climate.
KubotainNH
Veteran Member
I used Radiantec Radiant Heat,under floor radiant/solar heating systems and didn't want gas so went with a Bock oil fired water heater. Looks like a normal water heater with a Beck burner attached. It's 50 gallons and it can make a bunch of hot water quickly. With oil prices high it's a bit expensive in the coldest months but otherwise does well and is pretty efficient. I heat 3 floors of a 34x28 house with 4 zones.
Oldmopar
Member
In my experience, an electric water heater will work for a small slab but get any size to it and it will cost alot more to heat with than an actuall elec. boiler will. Dad and I built his 35x45 garage two years ago and put down 2" of foam, stapled the heat lines to this, and then covered everything with 2-3 inches of sand then the concrete, this gives a little extra resevoir of heat. Even in the coldest below zero weather we've had the bill for the month hasn't been more than $120. A friend across town has a 24x30' garage across town with the same setup but a water heater, and comparing month to month his always costs at least $25-50 more! The biggest thing to do is the foam underneath the slab AND 1-2" around the sides of the slab to block heat loss out the edges.
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
Old Mopar, there are a lot of variables even if the garages were exactly the same size. Like how the building on top of the slab is built, sealed and insulated. And, how high the thermostat is set. If your thermostat is set at 50F it is a completely different thing than when it is set to 65F. A lot of people leave out the insulation below the slab. If the ground underneath is and stays dry, you just take a hit at the start of the season, but if the ground underneath is wet, it is a very very bad thing. Finally, the climate (heating degree days as well as wind exposure).
Garages can be difficult to seal up. My garage doors deflect when there is some wind pressure on them, and I have yet to see anything but some really high end single panel doors that looked like they would seal worth a ****. My garage tends to be just above freezing in winter and snow on the rear bumper of my wifes car, which is about 20" from the door will not melt in the worst weather.
Garages can be difficult to seal up. My garage doors deflect when there is some wind pressure on them, and I have yet to see anything but some really high end single panel doors that looked like they would seal worth a ****. My garage tends to be just above freezing in winter and snow on the rear bumper of my wifes car, which is about 20" from the door will not melt in the worst weather.
Raspy
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Electric water heaters vs electric boilers.
With a small degree of variability, it's simply watts into water in both cases. It's what happens outside the appliance the makes the variance in operating costs, as westcliff says. Thermostat setting, building losses and many other factors.
Gas appliances, on the other hand, can range in efficiency from 60% to 96%. The rest goes out the stack and is lost. Not so with electric unless you have an uninsulated boiler that sits hot in a non heated area. Or you have a water heater that stays warm all summer waiting vs a boiler that comes on only when there is a call for heat. But while running, it's comparing apples to apples, they both send watts to water through an immersed element.
With a small degree of variability, it's simply watts into water in both cases. It's what happens outside the appliance the makes the variance in operating costs, as westcliff says. Thermostat setting, building losses and many other factors.
Gas appliances, on the other hand, can range in efficiency from 60% to 96%. The rest goes out the stack and is lost. Not so with electric unless you have an uninsulated boiler that sits hot in a non heated area. Or you have a water heater that stays warm all summer waiting vs a boiler that comes on only when there is a call for heat. But while running, it's comparing apples to apples, they both send watts to water through an immersed element.
The 12kwh figure is when the heater is running wide open. My Hydro Shark has a indicator light that says when it is modulating or wide open and it can go for weeks before I see it running wide open.
Another thing to remember, a kilowatt is a kilowatt. There is very little difference, usage wise, with different types of electric water heating. The "CLAIMED" savings for tankless water heaters is the heat loss of the stored water in the tank. Not really an issue when using them them for heat.
DRL
KB9UDE
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How deep in the concrete do you bury the pipes? I am looking at doing a job requiring heat in the floor and was not sure if it was to be laid on the insulation board or suspended in the concrete??
yomax4
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I had a 28'x48' basement in floor heat system hooked to a water heater for 1 yr. ( Propane ) worked ok, I have since installed an outdoor wood boiler and love it!