Neighbor thinks he owns my land?

[RobertBrown]

I wish I could understand how surveying is done. Robert, yes I have a legal description. I have the degrees, minutes and feet for the line in question as recorded at the court house. I thought the surveyor would set up on a stake down on that end of the property and check the angles, or something. Not so easy. He says he would need to start a couple thousand feet away where he knows the points on my property from some work he did for me this summer. The surveyor says he never did work on that end of my property before, but I have a map and a legal description that says he did. I told him that too, but he insists that he didnt do it. Weird?

I estimate the neighbor is blocking me out of about 2 acres.

Call another surveyor, time is on your side.
2 acres? How big is your parcel? Is it such that you could take a copy of the document into the field with a gps and lensatic compass, roughly determine the shape and lines to see where your at? How many corners are there on the side that you are referring to?
Basically the surveyor measures distance and angles with an instrument. You just need to be able to measure distance and locate a bearing....for now.
It may be that the property has too many corners for this type of rock and stick surveying. But my thoughts are this may provide you some information that is of use or could provide some answers.
That's how I would approach it for now. If you find that, in your estimation your Dad was right, then tell this guy to get off your property, put him in your position. Now it's his property to claim and most likely he'll call the surveyor, and you will either: won't have to pay or he will be asking you for half.
Did i miss something?

 

[Cat_Driver]

Get all your ducks in a row first. Find the corners WITH PROOF.

I can understand NOT talking face to face as this is often misconstrued as confrontational. You know Mano-a-mano. The mere fact of approaching a stranger / neighbor is most often misunderstood. Compounded with delivering BAD NEWS to that person....who needs it. I wouldn't go one on one with a neighbor bringing him bad news. Who needs the stress. Furthermore now a days, people go off the deep end for a whole lot less. Watch the news any night and see the people that "go postal".

Then one of two things, go see the neighbor in person and introduce yourself. Indicate that you just had the are surveyed and you notice some people have done ( X,Y,Z, ) on your property so you have fenced it off to not have it happen again. Take the neighbors out of it by blaming "someone else"

Number two send them a letter saying the same thing indicating you are sending it to ALL THE NEIGHBORS....really juts sending it to them. if you fed ex it you will get a signature.

Two things will happen. They will just do nothing or they will call foul. But calling foul when you have documented proof would prove futile.

 

[Ron JD670]

Strum
You mentioned finding the corner stakes. I assume they are on the line with your neighbor. If so you simply need to graciously assert your rights. The burden is on them to assert a counter view, if in fact the have one.
Again they must prove a different reality.
Note they may need to survey their property to sell or develop it

Assuming your conversation goes well, I would be prepared to outline your long/short term plan. Something like I plan to clear brush along line , clean out debris, eventually put up a fence etc. If you feel like giving access (after considering your liability issues) you might ask where a good pass through gate might be.

However, to make your ability to maintain your assumed or understood line adding rebar markers as noted earlier. And as I did photograph and triangulate the corner points to trees or other nearby land marks and document on a copy of you old survey so you can reestablish the if needed. If the land is relatively flat you could measure from the other known points I had to pull out one of my old engineering calculators and figure out some angles. I did this to check to see if my deed was close to what I found on the ground on a new piece of property.

Well I meant to stop here but just could not help myself

I found some things did not match up.

On the new property (now being mediated) after some planning and finding land marks for an adjoining recent survey I went to the survey shop in town got a few hour training and rented surveying unit to locate (approximately) two other corners. which turned out not to match the fence lines or points believed to be the corners. But this was not a legal survey but showed me I had differences I needed to resolve.

So I spent a couple hours at the county surveyors office and the guy was more than willing to pull all the surveys and add to my education.

Among the things I have since learned is my property is on a section boundary and the true and actual line of that section line prevails despite old pins (except section and quarter pins) as the deed descriptions for the properties in the section are relative to these boundaries. Also my deed reads "to this distance more or less" I found out if the section (roughly a square mile) is off a little +/- my lot got a little bigger or smaller. This made up for the less accurate survey technology in the 1800s when the section boundaries were established. With modern survey techniques they can get down to the inch. When my neighbor surveyed (saving me from paying for it) to get a county permit we found the fences and were off on two sides (one 13 to 24 feet) I was off by about 5 ft because I used the deed descriptions which as I said read "more or less". Turned out I got just a little less.

Ok so what is my point - assert your right to what you reasonably believe is your property. Maintain good relations if you can. Let them prove you wrong. Be willing to learn something new.

I hope this adds to the discussion and Strum has a good discussion with the neighbor. Best wishes

 

[strum456]

Call another surveyor, time is on your side.
2 acres? How big is your parcel? Is it such that you could take a copy of the document into the field with a gps and lensatic compass, roughly determine the shape and lines to see where your at? How many corners are there on the side that you are referring to?
Basically the surveyor measures distance and angles with an instrument. You just need to be able to measure distance and locate a bearing....for now.
It may be that the property has too many corners for this type of rock and stick surveying. But my thoughts are this may provide you some information that is of use or could provide some answers.
That's how I would approach it for now. If you find that, in your estimation your Dad was right, then tell this guy to get off your property, put him in your position. Now it's his property to claim and most likely he'll call the surveyor, and you will either: won't have to pay or he will be asking you for half.
Did i miss something?

I thought this would be an easy job for a surveyor. It is a single straight line with an iron pin at each end. The distance between the two is 351 feet. I already checked the bearing with my lensatic compass, just like the Army taught me. Everything checks out except the neighbor's junk. Lol.

 

[sixdogs]

Having been through this and heard lots of tales, the best way seems to be to shift the risk of the situation to them. It's your land and you can prove it. If they can't prove it's theirs, too bad. Depending on your view of the people involved, the cops will talk to him. But also the complaining guy is not the landowner. Don't burn his stuff.

 

[aczlan]

I thought this would be an easy job for a surveyor. It is a single straight line with an iron pin at each end. The distance between the two is 351 feet. I already checked the bearing with my lensatic compass, just like the Army taught me. Everything checks out except the neighbor's junk. Lol.

But he needs to make sure those pins are still where he put them and get something to pay for the hassles of a possible boundary dispute... Or at least that is how it worked when I was working for a surveyor (carrying a prism on a stick and finding markers).

Aaron Z

 

[tom4018]

Having been in a dispute with neighbor that squabbles with everone that borders him. The surveyor has to make a complete circle, start at one corner and end back there to be considered a legal survey.

We were asked to pay 50% by him, attorney suggested not to. We stood our ground as he was trying to take more, he hired a surveyor a few years ago, fired him when he seen the lines where not where he wanted them.

Personally for that distance I would flag it best I could and give them the burden tp prove it is not yours. Lawyer told me the only people who win in these disputes are surveyors and them. Landowners end up unhappy.

 

[Ron JD670]

I wish I could understand how surveying is done. Robert, yes I have a legal description. I have the degrees, minutes and feet for the line in question as recorded at the court house. I thought the surveyor would set up on a stake down on that end of the property and check the angles, or something. Not so easy. He says he would need to start a couple thousand feet away where he knows the points on my property from some work he did for me this summer. The surveyor says he never did work on that end of my property before, but I have a map and a legal description that says he did. I told him that too, but he insists that he didnt do it. Weird?

I estimate the neighbor is blocking me out of about 2 acres.

Strum
Had I known the additional comments being posted I would have elaborated further. I suggest you go and spend some time at the county recorders and surveyors office you may find them helpful. The county surveyor may be able to explain why the surveyor claimed he did not do the work. In Oregon a surveyor is an agent of the state even if you are paying them the records are for the benefit of the public if recorded. Only if they are recorded are they part of the public record.

I think you mentioned being a teacher do you have a good relationship with someone in the mathematics dept? You might want to take them to lunch.

As I mentioned in my last post the land description is usually relative to a section which is roughly one mile square. This is divided into quarters - cut the section down the middle both ways. The corners of the section are primary reference. The Deeds a usually relative to a quarter of a section. But as happened in my survey they had to go over 2500 feet to find both corners of the section line to resolve an error in the location of a quarter pin. When he was done he found the previous surveyor had not not discovered the discrepancy and properly closed the boundaries and had planted pins three feet off the line section line. So your surveyor may have had good reason to go back to a known point especially on a survey he said he did not do. Some one may have done some work under him/his license and he wants to cover his basis.

Regarding GPS - yes they use it but it is not commercial GPS these total station systems is GPS on steroids - it compensates for the variation in the wobble of the satellite in what are called stationary orbits, the wobble of the earth, and the difference in radio transmission time of each satellite to the ground station. They also have reference ground stations to further refine errors. I worked on the first geo positioning satellite systems for military use. They have come long way. I have had a lot of fun learning about surveying and using some old math skills.

I also pulled every deed for my quarter and found every accessible pin on my lines and road ways and cooperative neighbors. When the surveyor showed I saved him a couple hours which he spent telling me about his survey station and the issues with many of the local surveys and depute issues.

So if you have the need, time, and interest it can be a lot of fun and empowering when dealing with neighbors. Especially when one would not negotiate I new I was on sold ground when my attorney agreed to convince the neighbor mediation was better than going t court.

If it does not Look like the neighbor wants to discuss it I found a couple real estate people through the MLS office that do mediation. Also an attorney may be able to suggest a mediator that deals with land use. The neighbor might agree to that rather than get an attorney.

knowledge is power.

Again lots luck and Best wishes.

 

[two_bit_score]

Seems title insurance really covers next to nothing. What a racket this is, getting that huge premium every time property changes hands or gets refinanced.......

Yes, Alan, you're right. When you read the list of exclusions it really makes you wonder what you are paying for.



.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Sorry to intrude late, but I recently had a talk with a professional surveyer in Town about what is and is NOT legal in Michigan, GPS is not legal. It is used in property sales because all they (the bank) care about is whether the buildings are on the property. But (for example in MY CASE: Where is the county roadway?), a theodolite (measures angles) and chains/tape (measures distance) system is all that is legal. They might even have to go back to the county marker a few miles away. Your property description ought to include a compass heading, angles and lengths. A kid in sophmore trigonometry ought to be able to figure it out for you. In college, we had to survey the entire campus given the tools, the description and the brass county marker.

All this for a simple reason. GPS is accurate for a short time, but wanders because of satellite movement and earth precession. A while back, On-Star contacted me because a 'dead zone' about 50 feet wide runs right thru my property. No XM radio, No DirectTV, and no satellite phones. The wander of this zone over 30 days is pretty large, often over 100 feet. That can be narrowed down a bit using an extra ground station from the local jetport in Pontiac (differential GPS). So the moving property lines and the moving center of my road is a well known joke around here. My neighbor was told that the county road went right thru his front porch until they did a proper, legal survey. You can also see this on Google Maps. You often see the road centerline is often not in the center of the road. This is not because the paving company or the county snow plows screwed up, either.

BYW, Thats why they still need BIG bombs. Close is good enough. Exact is not likely. I don't care how precise it is, next month the precision will be the same, but the accuracy will be different.

Precisely. It cost me $10,000 to prove to the road commission that the center of the road is in the center of the roadway, not 32 feet east (like Google indicates).

As stated the cost can be high BECAUSE they must go back to a known legal marker. In many parts this could make for a bill worth more than the land.

Legal descriptions are really not "legal" in the sense they are correct because both parties can have "legal descriptions" that can not be in the world of physics.

Quitclaim Deed Definition | Investopedia

Quit Claim deeds can help when the property deeds are in conflict in "Legal Descriptions". I have used it in one case but there was not gun battles about to happen before hand either.

Three parties agreed to the work of the surveyor then all three deeds and the surveyor's plat were legally recorded by the lawyer involved in drawing up the three deeds.

Deeds alone do not carry a lot of weight if the physical evidence is not strong and is one reason we have judges and lawyers. :thumbsup: