Axle location question

[henretty]

Good rule of thumb and starting point is to put the axle at 60% the way ack from the front of the bed. This way you end up with the bed of the trailer with a 60/40 divide.

Chris

I have built many a trailer and before reading the above post was sayin to myself...60% of total trailer in front of axles 40% behind... long way of sayin he is right .......one mans opinion ....i could be wrong

 

[zzvyb6]

I'd forget about all the hitch discussion items if you are still using mobile home tires. Because, that's causing the problem you are having. Mobile home tire have very low cornering stiffness (sidebite). Therefore the trailer yaws (turns relative to the truck) in order to generate enough sideforce to handle the turns. Mobile home tires are NOT designed or intended for long haul purposes. They are never intended to be used with a one axle trailer. Even the wheels are not intended for heavy cornering. Verticle load, yes, sideload no. Mobile homes usually have TWO or MORE axles with a wide axle span (distance between wheel centers). This tends to give them higher yaw stability for their limited sidebite.

I would replace the axle with a real trailer axle using automotive type wheels and good, name brand trailer or passenger vehicle tires. Want even better high speed stability? Add a second axle. The pairs of tires add a very substantial amount of yaw/speed stability AND load capacity. Besides that, the low to very low tongue weight makes it a lot easier to maneuver the rig around the barnyard with lawn mowers, golf carts and 4 wheelers. Best setup could be dual axle, deck over, 10" trailer tires. That's what I use. Sometimes the tongue weight is negative but she's good for 80 mph.

BTW, all my recommendations are based on a 40 year career in Vehicle Dynamics at a major auto company. Whenever we measured the handling capacity of mobile home tires and wheels (usually for a lawsuit), we vowed never to use them even for a pond float. HOWZ zat?

So now let all the anecdotes begin about how they are using mobile homes tars on them dirt track rice cars. Sit in a courtroom with a case against a vehicle manufacturer by the wife of a vegetable sitting in front of you who swore them tars was good and you will have had a life changing experience.

Remember that they usually sit for 10 years between use, wheels don't have a safety bead, and are the main reason someone ALWAYS is following them when they get kicked out of the park (I mean neighborhood). And you thought it was because its a 'wide load'. Its actually pretty wide wallowing all over two lanes. And the tow vehicle has enough rear tire on it to haul locomotives to a shop. They use enough tongue weight to keep a super model from getting wet from all the drool....

 

[zzvyb6]

Here's one of my haulers: zero or low tongue weight (rear diff ground clearance).

 

[jejeosborne]

Well, I'm confused as well, so we are in good company! My hitch is rated for 12,000 lbs tow capacity and 1,200 lbs tongue weight. But it seems pretty clear to me now that everybody specs hitches based on a weight-distributing system being in place. The question that is outstanding is at what point you have to put the WD system on, and I don't have a straight answer for you.

One could argue that Dodge puts the exact same Class IV hitch on the 1500 as the 2500, in which case the 350 lbs TW number that is in the manual could be correct. The Dodge web site says 500 lbs TW (5000 lbs trailer weight) for a WD system. I'm not sure which of these numbers is correct.

Bottom line is that my towing capacity is substantially lower than I thought it was this morning, because I didn't realize that every hitch manufacturer (it seems) specs their hitches based on the WD rating. I bought a 12,000 lb ball mount in order to match my hitch's rating, but it sure seems like it was a waste of money, since I can't go over 5000 (or maybe as low as 3500) lbs without a WD system.

Live and learn...

EDIT: Now you have got me wondering. I am going to go out (in the rain, nonetheless!) and look under my truck to see if I can find that sticker.

EDIT #2: Sorry. I just went out with a flashlight and looked all over it, and I just don't see that sticker anywhere on the hitch.

I would think that you could use the 500/5000 lb rating and be safe. Sorry I didn't see the PM before asking. A WD hitch torques the ball mount in the reciever tube which allows all of the bolts attaching it to the frame to carry the load. Without the WD hitch, all the load is carried on the rear most bolts so I see why the rating differences. Glad to clear the air and maybe keep you from a failure.
Jeff

 

[joshuabardwell]

Glad to clear the air and maybe keep you from a failure.
Jeff

Likewise. I hardly ever get my trailer over 5000 lbs, but my tractor would put it right at 5100, and if I had an implement on, that would be extra. Would I get away with it? Probably. There's a lot of safety margin built into this stuff. Would I be comfortable doing it? Heck no. Especially since, if I get in an accident, I'm going to be crucified if I'm not squeaky-clean.

All these conversations about towing just make me cringe, when I think of people I've known who have loaded up trailers with god-knows how much weight, hitched them up to a system rated for who-knows-what, and blithely started off down the road. I knew one guy who bent an axle after he and nine of his friends piled into his mini-bus for a week at Burning Man, including ALL OF THEIR WATER (approximately 900 lbs of water). It was his father-in-law's trailer, to boot! Halfway through the trip, they blew a tire because it was riding on the sidewall. Halfway back, they blew the new tire, and that was when they figured out something was wrong :laughing: Nobody died, but sheesh... it's not like what he did is that unusual.

Let's see... he bent the axle on a dually trailer. That was probably a 3500 lb axle. So perhaps he had 7000 lbs plus GTW. And I guarantee you it wasn't a WD hitch. Ugh. I guess it just goes to show how over-engineered these things really are, that it held together and got everybody home in one piece.

 

[handirifle]

I'd forget about all the hitch discussion items if you are still using mobile home tires. Because, that's causing the problem you are having. Mobile home tire have very low cornering stiffness (sidebite). Therefore the trailer yaws (turns relative to the truck) in order to generate enough sideforce to handle the turns. Mobile home tires are NOT designed or intended for long haul purposes. They are never intended to be used with a one axle trailer. Even the wheels are not intended for heavy cornering. Verticle load, yes, sideload no. Mobile homes usually have TWO or MORE axles with a wide axle span (distance between wheel centers). This tends to give them higher yaw stability for their limited sidebite.

I would replace the axle with a real trailer axle using automotive type wheels and good, name brand trailer or passenger vehicle tires. Want even better high speed stability? Add a second axle. The pairs of tires add a very substantial amount of yaw/speed stability AND load capacity. Besides that, the low to very low tongue weight makes it a lot easier to maneuver the rig around the barnyard with lawn mowers, golf carts and 4 wheelers. Best setup could be dual axle, deck over, 10" trailer tires. That's what I use. Sometimes the tongue weight is negative but she's good for 80 mph.

BTW, all my recommendations are based on a 40 year career in Vehicle Dynamics at a major auto company. Whenever we measured the handling capacity of mobile home tires and wheels (usually for a lawsuit), we vowed never to use them even for a pond float. HOWZ zat?

So now let all the anecdotes begin about how they are using mobile homes tars on them dirt track rice cars. Sit in a courtroom with a case against a vehicle manufacturer by the wife of a vegetable sitting in front of you who swore them tars was good and you will have had a life changing experience.

Remember that they usually sit for 10 years between use, wheels don't have a safety bead, and are the main reason someone ALWAYS is following them when they get kicked out of the park (I mean neighborhood). And you thought it was because its a 'wide load'. Its actually pretty wide wallowing all over two lanes. And the tow vehicle has enough rear tire on it to haul locomotives to a shop. They use enough tongue weight to keep a super model from getting wet from all the drool....

While I cannot compete with your background, I can say that when I can lift the front with two fingers, I know it is not right. This was a farm trailer, and I can tell you that 10" wheels would most likely bend under the weight of the trailer alone. It has an 4x8ft bed, and the entire trailer is built from 1/4" thick, 2" x 4" box tubing. My driveway to my workshop has only a SLIGHT uphill grade to it and I cannot even come close to pushing the trailer up that slope. As for the tires themselves, you might be right, these particular tires ARE DOT rated, but they are mobil axles and wheels.

I intend to change them out when $$$ permits. Right now it does not. I changed this trailer from farm to highway, and it was inspected and signed off by the CA DMV before registering it for highway use, so liability issues are arguable at least.

 

[jejeosborne]

I'd forget about all the hitch discussion items if you are still using mobile home tires. Because, that's causing the problem you are having. Mobile home tire have very low cornering stiffness (sidebite). Therefore the trailer yaws (turns relative to the truck) in order to generate enough sideforce to handle the turns. Mobile home tires are NOT designed or intended for long haul purposes. They are never intended to be used with a one axle trailer. Even the wheels are not intended for heavy cornering. Verticle load, yes, sideload no. Mobile homes usually have TWO or MORE axles with a wide axle span (distance between wheel centers). This tends to give them higher yaw stability for their limited sidebite.

I would replace the axle with a real trailer axle using automotive type wheels and good, name brand trailer or passenger vehicle tires. Want even better high speed stability? Add a second axle. The pairs of tires add a very substantial amount of yaw/speed stability AND load capacity. Besides that, the low to very low tongue weight makes it a lot easier to maneuver the rig around the barnyard with lawn mowers, golf carts and 4 wheelers. Best setup could be dual axle, deck over, 10" trailer tires. That's what I use. Sometimes the tongue weight is negative but she's good for 80 mph.

BTW, all my recommendations are based on a 40 year career in Vehicle Dynamics at a major auto company. Whenever we measured the handling capacity of mobile home tires and wheels (usually for a lawsuit), we vowed never to use them even for a pond float. HOWZ zat?

So now let all the anecdotes begin about how they are using mobile homes tars on them dirt track rice cars. Sit in a courtroom with a case against a vehicle manufacturer by the wife of a vegetable sitting in front of you who swore them tars was good and you will have had a life changing experience.

Remember that they usually sit for 10 years between use, wheels don't have a safety bead, and are the main reason someone ALWAYS is following them when they get kicked out of the park (I mean neighborhood). And you thought it was because its a 'wide load'. Its actually pretty wide wallowing all over two lanes. And the tow vehicle has enough rear tire on it to haul locomotives to a shop. They use enough tongue weight to keep a super model from getting wet from all the drool....

Well I was just telling myself, this guy must be nuts. Then you posted the pictures and solidified my thoughts. You consider yourself an expert and come on here to educate people who are new to trailers and towing that negative tongue weight is not an issue. I think you swept floors for 40 years or were only hired by defendants who got into towing accidents. Yeah, I am sure a tandem axle 8 foot trailer is a good idea but come on.

 

[zzvyb6]

A 20.5 x 8.00-10" tire load range E has a max rating of 1650 lbs. 4 of them should give you plenty of load capacity, stability, peace of mind and a low deck height. A neighbor has these on a 4 x 8 trailer for hauling roofing bundles. That's what is on that hay trailer. (Its 8 x 16')

I am a professional engineer, worked for the defendents against all kinds of vehicle misuse, and sweep my outside floors with a leaf blower. Inside, I have 2 Dysans.I have analyzed trailer towing with my own and other compuer simulations, measured all kinds of tires on an MTS Flat-Trac tester, and performed handling tests on the road and on laboratory equipment at a Proving Grounds. And some U.S. patents on these methods, BTW. I bale hay with a 15 year old tractor using a mower and baler that's almost as old as I am. I restore old water pumping metal windmills for fun and preservation. Many of them having come from Kendallville, Indiana. For fun, I shoot a Barrett M99 50 BMG. If you have an opinion based on facts bring it on. If you read it in Reader's Digest (a Carolyn Davis recipe, maybe?) keep it to yourself and then do some homework.

Sort of jives with JDGreen227's recent post, eh? Since I know WHY a positive tongue load is usually recommended, I can compensate for that need in other ways. What's in your wallet?

 

[jejeosborne]

A 20.5 x 8.00-10" tire load range E has a max rating of 1650 lbs. 4 of them should give you plenty of load capacity, stability, peace of mind and a low deck height. A neighbor has these on a 4 x 8 trailer for hauling roofing bundles. That's what is on that hay trailer. (Its 8 x 16')

I am a professional engineer, worked for the defendents against all kinds of vehicle misuse, and sweep my outside floors with a leaf blower. Inside, I have 2 Dysans.I have analyzed trailer towing with my own and other compuer simulations, measured all kinds of tires on an MTS Flat-Trac tester, and performed handling tests on the road and on laboratory equipment at a Proving Grounds. And some U.S. patents on these methods, BTW. I bale hay with a 15 year old tractor using a mower and baler that's almost as old as I am. I restore old water pumping metal windmills for fun and preservation. Many of them having come from Kendallville, Indiana. For fun, I shoot a Barrett M99 50 BMG. If you have an opinion based on facts bring it on. If you read it in Reader's Digest (a Carolyn Davis recipe, maybe?) keep it to yourself and then do some homework.

Sort of jives with JDGreen227's recent post, eh? Since I know WHY a positive tongue load is usually recommended, I can compensate for that need in other ways. What's in your wallet?

Please tell us how you compensate using "other ways" to make a negative tongue weight trailer safe at 80 mph on 10" wheels. What speed are those tires rated for? Never seen a trailer tire being rated over 65 mph let alone a tiny 10" tire spinning almost twice as fast as a 15 inch tire.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Well I was just telling myself, this guy must be nuts. Then you posted the pictures and solidified my thoughts.

I ain't no expert (as my contributions to this thread will clearly illustrate), but I also cringed when I saw those pics.