DABSGT
Veteran Member
Nice looking animals. How did you happen across wolfs as a pet? Tried to talk wife into it was afraid they would be to wild.
Found a coyote, I think
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Nice looking animals. How did you happen across wolfs as a pet? Tried to talk wife into it was afraid they would be to wild.
ruffdog
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I once had a friend that had a small pet gator. Now, a few years later, I wish I still had my friend....
RandyBell
Silver Member
My wife know I had always been intriqued with wolves and had found them advertised in a paper, we went to see the pups and met the adult ones and decided to give it a shot.That was the white one shadow I've had a lot of dogs and I don't think I would want to go back to a normal dog again. I think they said they were 10th generation breeding .
Thanks for asking
by the way we have cats in the house and chickens outside, when either were little they would guard them.
Randy
Thanks for asking
by the way we have cats in the house and chickens outside, when either were little they would guard them.
Randy
ruffdog
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A friend of mine had a wolf/dog mix. Before they got it they researched it. If you put water down for it, if it laps the water, it is a good sign. If it sucks the water, don't get it...too much wolf.
RandyBell
Silver Member
I am more afraid of a wolf dog mix than a pure breed. Wolves have a fear of man I don't think it is good to have the strength without the fear of man. I have never heard of them sucking water! Mine sure do not.
OP
Raspy
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Well, it looks like it's almost time for Sandy to move to her next home. A place where she will be safe, have more room to roam around and get proper medical care. And a place that will not kill her.
She is becoming difficult. It happens when she is tired and mainly at night. Tonight for example, we were sitting on the couch and I was talking to her gently and petting her. Touching her tummy, rubbing her ears, praising her. I woke her up when I sat down next to her and she was very happy. Wolf kisses, laying on her back, nuzzling into my arm and nose up my sleeve.
Gradually getting more wound up and playfully biting me through my shirt, jumping down off the couch and back up. I began to stop her from biting and she ramped it up. I pinched the back of her neck, NO!, and she quieted down.
Time to go out and she peed immediately. Then digging in her heels and pulling on the leash. I relaxed the leash and she stopped pulling. I say "in!" and she pulls again. ("In" means back into the house and usually she goes right in). Finally after trying to calm her down for several minutes, I just dragged her in. She didn't want to be picked up. Snapping. In the house my wife, Liye, put on gloves and picked her up. She put her in her box and the battle began. Scratching, scratching to get out. I was talking to her and remained right there with her so she would not feel like she was being an outcast. More scratching. Finally she got her head out and forced the opening enough to get out. I tried to pick her up and she would not let me close without a clear threat of being bitten. Not attacking, but not accepting an approach to her.
That's the key to all of this. She won't allow anyone to get close when she is in this state of mind. So I picked her up by the leash and deposited her into her box and put the lid on to hold her.
More scratching for a minute and then silence as she fell asleep.
This behavior is happening over and over, in the late evening. She gets tired and cranky, even if she had a nap right before. Or it's just her time to be out at night on the prowl, hunting, like I hear them do all around my place almost every night.
She goes from completely docile to uncontrollable in a slow ramp up. Mainly around putting her to bed. It seems she wants to play and play and tear up everything with biting, pulling and chewing, especially at night. All puppies want to chew, I know, but she is like a little kid that gets sent to bed and throws a tantrum.
At night she seems different outside than she is during the day. Day she is wary and hides if there is a barking dog or a strange sound or if a stranger appears. At night she wants to pull on her leash and get away to run, even if there is no disturbing noise.
So, what does "wild" mean in terms of observed behavior? Not a sudden stealth attack, like a cat might do. Not a mindless, frantic, banging into things panic. But wariness that can be much more intense at times. Never a bark, but a wild scared look in the eyes. She seems to frantically avoid confrontation and tries very hard to get away from the leash or out of sight under the deck. When she is in that state of mind, even those she knows well and trusts become part of the problem and must be held at bay.
Then the night is over, she is rested and eager to get out of her box. She goes out to pee and, once again, loves to be touched. Has a bowl of breakfast and a drink of water. Attempts to play with the cat, who doesn't want anything to do with her. Romps around with Bei Bei. Gets snarled at by Eddie. And all is back to normal. A few wolf kisses and a few torn pieces of paper. Lots of romping around and curiosity. My shoes carried around and an old glove chewed a bit more. Typical puppy and all others in the house deal with her in their own way. Bei Bei reminds her who the Alpha dog is a couple of times. Liye and I reduce the intensity of our concern. We chat about it during the day.
Then the long day ends and she gets tired and cranky and wary and???here we go again.
To keep her much longer would seem to mean these problems would be coming from a bigger and bigger dog. A stronger and stronger dog. I have been wondering how I'd deal with her health care during such a fear driven state of mind. Muzzle her? Sedate her? How? I can fence in a nice big yard and set her free in there with lots of sand and bushes and water and food and bunnies and snakes and squirrels, etc. But that really doesn't solve the problem of health care or strangers. And at 35 lbs or so and living part time in the yard, can we trust her with the other dogs or with us if she gets upset?
We love her. I respect the healthy, beautiful, honest, powerful and successful animal she is. If there was ever a strong and healthy animal, it's her. Just imagine dogs in the wild. Only the strong survive. Constant competition. Adapted through thousands of generations, where only the most fit survived, to be perfectly fit for her environment. Perfectly tuned for the task at hand, survival. It means everything works perfectly. Body, mind and hardwiring. Plus a bit of luck to avoid predators. It means her parents were perfect to. Perfect in their health, their timing, their choice of a den, their hunting skills, their location amidst water and food.
All of that world is going on right now as I write this. Right now, this minute.
And one of those creatures that crossed paths with one of us got swept up in an adventure that affected all concerned. An ambassador. An unwitting teacher. A fun pal. An inspiring beauty. A myth slayer. A misfit. The very definition of a helpless little creature. A powerful survivor.
We were able to give her all she needed for a while, but not for much longer as she accelerates onward. She is not adaptable enough to our world and we are not adaptable enough to hers. Still, it's a close call and under a bit more favorable conditions, would work.
Now, the mechanics of the move. A long car trip. Negotiations. Liye's tears. Plans to visit. Thoughts of another dog we can keep, but not yet. (we were not looking for a dog when Sandy showed up and never realistically entertained the idea of keeping her. But we wanted to see for ourselves why it was a bad idea. Besides, I don't take advice from fear driven folks who have no experience in the area they're advising about)
My long running curiosity is now somewhat satisfied about wild coyotes, but I will seriously miss her. Always on a quest to understand them better, always loving dogs, I've found out they are all and more than I thought. Better than I dared to hope. She will be remembered.
Now, after another struggle this evening and some decisions made, she's lounging in the dog bed with that old glove. Quiet, busy and peaceful. Right in the middle of the room. Occasionally noticing the cat or getting up to visit Bei Bei. Seems idyllic, for now.
Then she needs to go out and the night turns her into a wild thing. She won't come in on her own and won't let me pick her up. Once in though, she's a playful puppy jumping and chewing. She's back in her safe zone and OK to approach. Soon she's asleep with the glove under her chin.
Liye would love to get a full night's sleep and hasn't for weeks. We've been traveling back and forth between the Bay Area and Northern Nevada. I'm building our house in Nevada and working in the Bay Area. Lot's of irons in the fire. And a coyote has been going with us wherever we go! It's getting to be a bit much. Too bad we can't just take her back to the spot our neighbor found her and let her get on with life in the wild.
This story and the many other posts only touch on the high points. The most indicative. Everyday life with her is filled with so many fun events. Plus the bigger picture of the natural world brushing up against the, so called, civilized world. We built our home in her world and found her practically in our back yard. Meanwhile, jackrabbits and cottontails by the hundreds, birds, voles, mountain lions, bears, dear, mustangs, squirrels, antelope, lizards and snakes, among so many other creatures are roaming all over the place nearby. We even have toads here in the high desert! Not to mention all the sheep and cattle. How could one baby dog affect us so much?
I'll follow up as things progress. Thanks for all the thoughtful posts!
She is becoming difficult. It happens when she is tired and mainly at night. Tonight for example, we were sitting on the couch and I was talking to her gently and petting her. Touching her tummy, rubbing her ears, praising her. I woke her up when I sat down next to her and she was very happy. Wolf kisses, laying on her back, nuzzling into my arm and nose up my sleeve.
Gradually getting more wound up and playfully biting me through my shirt, jumping down off the couch and back up. I began to stop her from biting and she ramped it up. I pinched the back of her neck, NO!, and she quieted down.
Time to go out and she peed immediately. Then digging in her heels and pulling on the leash. I relaxed the leash and she stopped pulling. I say "in!" and she pulls again. ("In" means back into the house and usually she goes right in). Finally after trying to calm her down for several minutes, I just dragged her in. She didn't want to be picked up. Snapping. In the house my wife, Liye, put on gloves and picked her up. She put her in her box and the battle began. Scratching, scratching to get out. I was talking to her and remained right there with her so she would not feel like she was being an outcast. More scratching. Finally she got her head out and forced the opening enough to get out. I tried to pick her up and she would not let me close without a clear threat of being bitten. Not attacking, but not accepting an approach to her.
That's the key to all of this. She won't allow anyone to get close when she is in this state of mind. So I picked her up by the leash and deposited her into her box and put the lid on to hold her.
More scratching for a minute and then silence as she fell asleep.
This behavior is happening over and over, in the late evening. She gets tired and cranky, even if she had a nap right before. Or it's just her time to be out at night on the prowl, hunting, like I hear them do all around my place almost every night.
She goes from completely docile to uncontrollable in a slow ramp up. Mainly around putting her to bed. It seems she wants to play and play and tear up everything with biting, pulling and chewing, especially at night. All puppies want to chew, I know, but she is like a little kid that gets sent to bed and throws a tantrum.
At night she seems different outside than she is during the day. Day she is wary and hides if there is a barking dog or a strange sound or if a stranger appears. At night she wants to pull on her leash and get away to run, even if there is no disturbing noise.
So, what does "wild" mean in terms of observed behavior? Not a sudden stealth attack, like a cat might do. Not a mindless, frantic, banging into things panic. But wariness that can be much more intense at times. Never a bark, but a wild scared look in the eyes. She seems to frantically avoid confrontation and tries very hard to get away from the leash or out of sight under the deck. When she is in that state of mind, even those she knows well and trusts become part of the problem and must be held at bay.
Then the night is over, she is rested and eager to get out of her box. She goes out to pee and, once again, loves to be touched. Has a bowl of breakfast and a drink of water. Attempts to play with the cat, who doesn't want anything to do with her. Romps around with Bei Bei. Gets snarled at by Eddie. And all is back to normal. A few wolf kisses and a few torn pieces of paper. Lots of romping around and curiosity. My shoes carried around and an old glove chewed a bit more. Typical puppy and all others in the house deal with her in their own way. Bei Bei reminds her who the Alpha dog is a couple of times. Liye and I reduce the intensity of our concern. We chat about it during the day.
Then the long day ends and she gets tired and cranky and wary and???here we go again.
To keep her much longer would seem to mean these problems would be coming from a bigger and bigger dog. A stronger and stronger dog. I have been wondering how I'd deal with her health care during such a fear driven state of mind. Muzzle her? Sedate her? How? I can fence in a nice big yard and set her free in there with lots of sand and bushes and water and food and bunnies and snakes and squirrels, etc. But that really doesn't solve the problem of health care or strangers. And at 35 lbs or so and living part time in the yard, can we trust her with the other dogs or with us if she gets upset?
We love her. I respect the healthy, beautiful, honest, powerful and successful animal she is. If there was ever a strong and healthy animal, it's her. Just imagine dogs in the wild. Only the strong survive. Constant competition. Adapted through thousands of generations, where only the most fit survived, to be perfectly fit for her environment. Perfectly tuned for the task at hand, survival. It means everything works perfectly. Body, mind and hardwiring. Plus a bit of luck to avoid predators. It means her parents were perfect to. Perfect in their health, their timing, their choice of a den, their hunting skills, their location amidst water and food.
All of that world is going on right now as I write this. Right now, this minute.
And one of those creatures that crossed paths with one of us got swept up in an adventure that affected all concerned. An ambassador. An unwitting teacher. A fun pal. An inspiring beauty. A myth slayer. A misfit. The very definition of a helpless little creature. A powerful survivor.
We were able to give her all she needed for a while, but not for much longer as she accelerates onward. She is not adaptable enough to our world and we are not adaptable enough to hers. Still, it's a close call and under a bit more favorable conditions, would work.
Now, the mechanics of the move. A long car trip. Negotiations. Liye's tears. Plans to visit. Thoughts of another dog we can keep, but not yet. (we were not looking for a dog when Sandy showed up and never realistically entertained the idea of keeping her. But we wanted to see for ourselves why it was a bad idea. Besides, I don't take advice from fear driven folks who have no experience in the area they're advising about)
My long running curiosity is now somewhat satisfied about wild coyotes, but I will seriously miss her. Always on a quest to understand them better, always loving dogs, I've found out they are all and more than I thought. Better than I dared to hope. She will be remembered.
Now, after another struggle this evening and some decisions made, she's lounging in the dog bed with that old glove. Quiet, busy and peaceful. Right in the middle of the room. Occasionally noticing the cat or getting up to visit Bei Bei. Seems idyllic, for now.
Then she needs to go out and the night turns her into a wild thing. She won't come in on her own and won't let me pick her up. Once in though, she's a playful puppy jumping and chewing. She's back in her safe zone and OK to approach. Soon she's asleep with the glove under her chin.
Liye would love to get a full night's sleep and hasn't for weeks. We've been traveling back and forth between the Bay Area and Northern Nevada. I'm building our house in Nevada and working in the Bay Area. Lot's of irons in the fire. And a coyote has been going with us wherever we go! It's getting to be a bit much. Too bad we can't just take her back to the spot our neighbor found her and let her get on with life in the wild.
This story and the many other posts only touch on the high points. The most indicative. Everyday life with her is filled with so many fun events. Plus the bigger picture of the natural world brushing up against the, so called, civilized world. We built our home in her world and found her practically in our back yard. Meanwhile, jackrabbits and cottontails by the hundreds, birds, voles, mountain lions, bears, dear, mustangs, squirrels, antelope, lizards and snakes, among so many other creatures are roaming all over the place nearby. We even have toads here in the high desert! Not to mention all the sheep and cattle. How could one baby dog affect us so much?
I'll follow up as things progress. Thanks for all the thoughtful posts!
OP
Raspy
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- Dec 16, 2006
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- Smith Valley, Nevada
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- NH TC29DA, F250 Tremor, Jeep Rubicon
Update.
Today I called to make arrangements to take Sandy to the rescue zoo. But things have changed and they won't take her now. Apparently they got another coyote in the mean time and that's it. They suggested I call another place that rescues wildlife and gave me a name. No, they don't take coyotes. She suggested another place near Reno that she thought was looking for a female coyote pup. I looked into it and called. No, their areas are all full and to take another one would mean a new enclosure at $10,000. The existing coyotes are female and seven years old. They would never accept her.
In the mean time I've been told they can climb over a ten foot fence and the only way top keep them in is to have a 13 foot fence with double electric wires and a buried barrier they can't dig through. I'm not about to build that for my yard.
I asked about a vet and was told that vets are required to call animal control if someone brings in a coyote. They'll take them and immediately kill them.
The woman knows we live in Nevada and said there might be a chance with a place at Tahoe, just over the California line, but that it was illegal to transport coyotes across the state line. That won't bother me, but it's another hassle for everyone involved. It turns out that place will only take her if they can also find a baby to help with the rehabilitation because Sandy is too old to rehabilitate on her own. She also said not to turn her loose or she'd die and that euthanizing her would be much more humane. What!
This is getting stranger by the minute. "Euthanize" her? Not way.
So here we are. Another evening at home and she's here being cute and alive, full of curiosity and fun.
We're not putting her in her box anymore and she's happier. We are not howling and she is calmer. We are being extremely calm and patient with her outside and she is less skittish. When she balks at coming back in we tie her and leave her alone for a few minutes. Then go back out and she is ready to come in on her own.
Bei Bei is with her constantly and really grounding her. Cleans her, plays with her, and keeps her under control. Very interesting as Bei Bei has never had pups, is spayed and is about five years old. They are almost the same size.
The responsibility we've taken on and the related study of the whole situation is very educational and frustrating.
It turns out that as more and more of them are shot, it disrupts their pack structure. Normally, only the dominant female will go into heat and it only happens once a year. Coyotes mate for life with their partners. When the dominant female gets killed or the pack is disrupted, all the females mate and much more pups are born. In the wild the survival rate is between 1 in 20 and 1 in 5. Not very many survive, but they are expanding in numbers and territorial area. The more we kill the more they produce and their family structure is being disrupted.
They are extremely smart and athletic. Very adaptable to many situations and can eat almost anything. They even catch birds. All the while exhibiting all the traits that we love so much about domestic dogs. Playful, curious, energetic, affectionate, trusting. Sandy loves to be touched just like any other dog and will expose her tummy, come over for a visit, or fall asleep in my lap. She is completely trusting unless she is revved up and even then she doesn't want to hurt me. She might be pulling on her leash at night outside, wanting to hide or run. Wild eyed. I'll reach in to pick her up or pet her and she will snap, but it's not really dangerous and she won't clamp down. She must be saying don't, I'm scared. But she's not trying to kill. The we leave her for a few minutes on her own and she wants to bound into the house on her own. Happy to be in and ready to be petted. Back in the middle of the pack. Soon she's asleep.
I'm sure you guys can see the situation I'm in. And, so far, I don't know where we're going. Killing her is out of the question and that means hiding her from animal control and vets. I can't realistically build an adequate yard fence. Maybe an electronic collar for a while, but that won't protect her form other coyotes. I'm not going to donate $10,000. to a zoo to build a yard for her. She's getting bigger and stronger every day. We love her. And it's taking a lot of our time and effort to accommodate her, especially since she is wild and is showing us what that means.
I suppose, if she became a real threat, I'd have to put her down, but she isn't. She's just a very nice dog with a wild streak, and so far, it's a bit difficult, but not overwhelming. If she tried to kill Bei Bei or Liye, I would not hesitate, but I just don't see that in her. I saved her and I don't want to be the one that kills her. What a problem.
My neighbor is about 75 years old and had a coyote when he was a kid. Found it at a few weeks old and brought it home. They had it for a long time and he remembers petting it on his lap and how smart it was. Finally, his father killed it because it kept killing the chickens. I think it still bothers him a bit.
However this turns out, Sandy will always be with me too.
Today I called to make arrangements to take Sandy to the rescue zoo. But things have changed and they won't take her now. Apparently they got another coyote in the mean time and that's it. They suggested I call another place that rescues wildlife and gave me a name. No, they don't take coyotes. She suggested another place near Reno that she thought was looking for a female coyote pup. I looked into it and called. No, their areas are all full and to take another one would mean a new enclosure at $10,000. The existing coyotes are female and seven years old. They would never accept her.
In the mean time I've been told they can climb over a ten foot fence and the only way top keep them in is to have a 13 foot fence with double electric wires and a buried barrier they can't dig through. I'm not about to build that for my yard.
I asked about a vet and was told that vets are required to call animal control if someone brings in a coyote. They'll take them and immediately kill them.
The woman knows we live in Nevada and said there might be a chance with a place at Tahoe, just over the California line, but that it was illegal to transport coyotes across the state line. That won't bother me, but it's another hassle for everyone involved. It turns out that place will only take her if they can also find a baby to help with the rehabilitation because Sandy is too old to rehabilitate on her own. She also said not to turn her loose or she'd die and that euthanizing her would be much more humane. What!
This is getting stranger by the minute. "Euthanize" her? Not way.
So here we are. Another evening at home and she's here being cute and alive, full of curiosity and fun.
We're not putting her in her box anymore and she's happier. We are not howling and she is calmer. We are being extremely calm and patient with her outside and she is less skittish. When she balks at coming back in we tie her and leave her alone for a few minutes. Then go back out and she is ready to come in on her own.
Bei Bei is with her constantly and really grounding her. Cleans her, plays with her, and keeps her under control. Very interesting as Bei Bei has never had pups, is spayed and is about five years old. They are almost the same size.
The responsibility we've taken on and the related study of the whole situation is very educational and frustrating.
It turns out that as more and more of them are shot, it disrupts their pack structure. Normally, only the dominant female will go into heat and it only happens once a year. Coyotes mate for life with their partners. When the dominant female gets killed or the pack is disrupted, all the females mate and much more pups are born. In the wild the survival rate is between 1 in 20 and 1 in 5. Not very many survive, but they are expanding in numbers and territorial area. The more we kill the more they produce and their family structure is being disrupted.
They are extremely smart and athletic. Very adaptable to many situations and can eat almost anything. They even catch birds. All the while exhibiting all the traits that we love so much about domestic dogs. Playful, curious, energetic, affectionate, trusting. Sandy loves to be touched just like any other dog and will expose her tummy, come over for a visit, or fall asleep in my lap. She is completely trusting unless she is revved up and even then she doesn't want to hurt me. She might be pulling on her leash at night outside, wanting to hide or run. Wild eyed. I'll reach in to pick her up or pet her and she will snap, but it's not really dangerous and she won't clamp down. She must be saying don't, I'm scared. But she's not trying to kill. The we leave her for a few minutes on her own and she wants to bound into the house on her own. Happy to be in and ready to be petted. Back in the middle of the pack. Soon she's asleep.
I'm sure you guys can see the situation I'm in. And, so far, I don't know where we're going. Killing her is out of the question and that means hiding her from animal control and vets. I can't realistically build an adequate yard fence. Maybe an electronic collar for a while, but that won't protect her form other coyotes. I'm not going to donate $10,000. to a zoo to build a yard for her. She's getting bigger and stronger every day. We love her. And it's taking a lot of our time and effort to accommodate her, especially since she is wild and is showing us what that means.
I suppose, if she became a real threat, I'd have to put her down, but she isn't. She's just a very nice dog with a wild streak, and so far, it's a bit difficult, but not overwhelming. If she tried to kill Bei Bei or Liye, I would not hesitate, but I just don't see that in her. I saved her and I don't want to be the one that kills her. What a problem.
My neighbor is about 75 years old and had a coyote when he was a kid. Found it at a few weeks old and brought it home. They had it for a long time and he remembers petting it on his lap and how smart it was. Finally, his father killed it because it kept killing the chickens. I think it still bothers him a bit.
However this turns out, Sandy will always be with me too.
MotorSeven
Elite Member
Wow it sounds like you are getting backed in a corner. I don't like the idea of caged enclosure, nor putting here down. What evidence is there that she cannot be assimilated back into a pack in the wild? When I decided to let Rocky go right out of my back door, he had a hard time for about a week. There were fights, he came home with some wounds, but in the end he became accepted. Of course raccoon's and 'yotes are different, but I kinda would lean towards turning her loose on a very remote large private property with permission of course. Maybe then she can have a chance at living free or die trying...better then a cage in my opinion.
texasjohn
Super Member
Raspy, congrats for going in eyes wide open...glad you are aware of differences between wild and domestic critters...all the best, keep us posted.
OP
Raspy
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Motor,
It seems they get taught to hunt by their mother and she starts before six weeks.
Turning her loose far away would mean she couldn't come home if she was hungry and unable to get food. I'm afraid it would lead to a slow agonizing death and being killed by a predator. We'd never know her fate.
The modern rescue zoos have beautiful large enclosed areas with dirt yards, trees and shelter that allows them to hide and to sleep in peace. It's not as good as the wide open spaces, but it could never be mistaken for a cage. And she wouldn't get used for target practice by some jackass.
A couple of experts have said she's too old unless there is a younger one with her and they can learn together.
It seems they get taught to hunt by their mother and she starts before six weeks.
Turning her loose far away would mean she couldn't come home if she was hungry and unable to get food. I'm afraid it would lead to a slow agonizing death and being killed by a predator. We'd never know her fate.
The modern rescue zoos have beautiful large enclosed areas with dirt yards, trees and shelter that allows them to hide and to sleep in peace. It's not as good as the wide open spaces, but it could never be mistaken for a cage. And she wouldn't get used for target practice by some jackass.
A couple of experts have said she's too old unless there is a younger one with her and they can learn together.