Injector Pump failure

[dennis52]

When looking for more information on what local Diesel additive to buy I came across this post on an Australian Forum.
If you have been skeptical about what's in the additives then I thought this was well worth a read.

Making your own Diesel Additive (and overpriced store options)

 

[Coyote machine]

When looking for more information on what local Diesel additive to buy I came across this post on an Australian Forum.
If you have been skeptical about what's in the additives then I thought this was well worth a read.

Link missing....

 

[dennis52]

Link missing....

Link attached

 

[Hoosier Hay Man]

Interesting article I found.

 

[ritcheyvs]

These little pumps really don't like biodiesel - discontinue use. Next ALWAYS (cannot stress this enough!), use some sort of fuel additive. KIOTI has one, FPPF Polar Power, Stanadyne, and of course LUCAS.

For Tony: Perhaps you can help us understand how/why fuel quality is a factor here. These IP failures (and several are currently under discussion) involve teeth on the rack and gears on the bottom-side of the IP which is lubricated by engine oil. Only the plunger and cylinder are lubricated by fuel and any significant wear to those parts would degrade performance and/or leak Diesel into the crankcase. I am not opposed to Diesel fuel additives (personally use them in all my Diesel engines) but I don't see how fuel additives are relevant to these IP gear/rack failures. Also, from the little research I've done, BioDiesel is alleged to have superior lubricating properties to any additive although I can't say how it might effect polymers like tanks and hoses. Any insight appreciated.

 

[Jesse masterson]

I agree Ritchie how is a fuel additive going to help in any way a violent action that breaks off teeth?

 

[keegs]

As i read through the forum, a number of you have reported injector pump problems going back to 2006. I wonder how many others outside the forum have had the same issue? And it seems to me that Kioti still hasn't fully addressed it either. Otherwise, why would they be looking to change O rings in this case? Are they still using the same pumps? And why do they exclude the pump from their warranty? Is this common practice?

This seems reason enough to reconsider purchasing their product.

 

[Deerherd]

As i read through the forum, a number of you have reported injector pump problems going back to 2006. I wonder how many others outside the forum have had the same issue? And it seems to me that Kioti still hasn't fully addressed it either. Otherwise, why would they be looking to change O rings in this case? Are they still using the same pumps? And why do they exclude the pump from their warranty? Is this common practice?

This seems reason enough to reconsider purchasing their product.

Is this open season on Kioti's? First off, there is no mention of 0 rings in this thread. The OP posted this almost a year ago talking about a problem a YEAR previous to that. HIS PUMP WAS REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY. What part of that don't you understand and how is that not addressing the problem? So your statement that they exclude the pump is blatantly false. This "huge" problem is limited to 12 cases on a spreadsheet, 6 were replaced under warranty, 6 have no final determination and the newest tractor with the problem is from 2008 so using the phrase "ongoing problem" is deceptive.

IMHO the things people should reconsider is your motives, not purchasing Kioti products.

 

[keegs]

DH,

I got dingo man's hydro fluid issue mixed in with what I'm still characterizing as this ongoing IP issue. If you search the forum there's a thread from 2006 about this. Apparently the manufacturer is replacing the pump at no charge but some have mentioned transport costs and downtime to mention a few inconveniences. And while I didn't verify this, many have mentioned this part isn't under the warranty.

I have no beef with Kioti, in fact I was impressed with the machines and their price. If my tone had a bit of an edge, it's likely due to my disappointment in reading the problems that so many on this forum have described

 

[stealthf8r]

Is this open season on Kioti's? First off, there is no mention of 0 rings in this thread. The OP posted this almost a year ago talking about a problem a YEAR previous to that. HIS PUMP WAS REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY. What part of that don't you understand and how is that not addressing the problem? So your statement that they exclude the pump is blatantly false. This "huge" problem is limited to 12 cases on a spreadsheet, 6 were replaced under warranty, 6 have no final determination and the newest tractor with the problem is from 2008 so using the phrase "ongoing problem" is deceptive.

IMHO the things people should reconsider is your motives, not purchasing Kioti products.

Not for nothing but my warranty clearly states fuel systems are not included in Kioti's warranty among other things. I believe this is a judgment call by Kioti whether to warranty or not.

 

[RickB]

Not for nothing but my warranty clearly states fuel systems are not included in Kioti's warranty among other things. I believe this is a judgment call by Kioti whether to warranty or not.

Here is some reading that should be required for anyone interested in this topic.
Let's cut through the garbage and stick to the facts:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/cert/hd-cert/stds-eng.pdf

There is a certain amount of subjectivity in warranty claims, but the most flexibility is in the dealer's hands relative to how a claim is presented and submitted to the manufacturer.


Edit:
I have located John Deere's explanation of the emissions warranty as it relates to offroad compression ignition engines. This info applies to Kioti and everyone else in this market in North America.
All fuel system components are covered for 5 years or 3000 hours. This applies to all off road diesels built after 1998 and greater than 37kW output and those 1999 and newer with 19-37kW in output.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/docs/warranty_pdf/power_systems/EPA_nonroad_emissions_ci_warranty.pdf

 

[Coyote machine]

Here's one possible explanation for why hard parts could be getting damaged by lack of lubricity in the fuel. Lubricity by its name and definition implies things are getting lubricated in ways that fuel with diminished lubricity is not. Therefore logic would seem to follow this path: less than needed lubrication, parts stick/ don't slide well, could result in parts sticking then releasing at greater speed/force than normal, resulting in damage to parts in question. Pumps with adequate lubricity present might fare better.

For the record, one of Kioti's top guys at Corporate Headquarters told me in a phone conversation we were having about TBN, the internet, and various problems like injectors, pumps, fuels, etc., that NO injection pumps have contained plastic gears, period. He said this is one of the things they dislike about internet forums- incorrect information that gets spread as if it were fact.

 

[Deerherd]

Not for nothing but my warranty clearly states fuel systems are not included in Kioti's warranty among other things. I believe this is a judgment call by Kioti whether to warranty or not.

Not for nothing but you should read your warranty again. It IS covered under part one of the general warranty for two years. In part two of the engine drive train extended warranty (years 2-4) it is listed as an exception.

See the warranty here: http://www.kiotitractor.com/img/parts/KIOTI_Warranty_Eng_05072012.pdf

 

[PoorPlowboy]

For Tony: Perhaps you can help us understand how/why fuel quality is a factor here. These IP failures (and several are currently under discussion) involve teeth on the rack and gears on the bottom-side of the IP which is lubricated by engine oil. Only the plunger and cylinder are lubricated by fuel and any significant wear to those parts would degrade performance and/or leak Diesel into the crankcase. I am not opposed to Diesel fuel additives (personally use them in all my Diesel engines) but I don't see how fuel additives are relevant to these IP gear/rack failures. Also, from the little research I've done, BioDiesel is alleged to have superior lubricating properties to any additive although I can't say how it might effect polymers like tanks and hoses. Any insight appreciated.

If there are sticky deposits accumulating in the wet fuel side of the IP, wouldn't this put higher than expected stress on the rack and gears?

 

[sherrym]

If there are sticky deposits accumulating in the wet fuel side of the IP, wouldn't this put higher than expected stress on the rack and gears?

I would agree if it were not for my using the same fuel in two other tractors that have a lot more than 500 hrs( when my kioti IP broke) on them. I have to conclude from my situation that it is bad parts(gears), and that kioti is very much aware that this is a problem, but if you are out of warranty and you do not have a dealer that will help you than be prepared to spend a lot of money on the part and alot of money on transportation and labor. Thanks to this forum my husband and I were able to remove and install the part to save on that cost.

 

[stealthf8r]

I would agree if it were not for my using the same fuel in two other tractors that have a lot more than 500 hrs( when my kioti IP broke) on them. I have to conclude from my situation that it is bad parts(gears), and that kioti is very much aware that this is a problem, but if you are out of warranty and you do not have a dealer that will help you than be prepared to spend a lot of money on the part and alot of money on transportation and labor. Thanks to this forum my husband and I were able to remove and install the part to save on that cost.

I could not imagine having to pay out of pocket :ashamed:

 

[Coyote machine]

I would agree if it were not for my using the same fuel in two other tractors that have a lot more than 500 hrs( when my kioti IP broke) on them. I have to conclude from my situation that it is bad parts(gears), and that kioti is very much aware that this is a problem, but if you are out of warranty and you do not have a dealer that will help you than be prepared to spend a lot of money on the part and alot of money on transportation and labor. Thanks to this forum my husband and I were able to remove and install the part to save on that cost.

From all the discussion on this and other threads about Kioti IPs it seems that the pump in question is found on various brands across the tractor market. I am not aware if Kioti has the pump for their application tweaked to a particular use of specific parts that might differ from what is used on another brand tractor, for instance Kubota or something similar. But there seems to be no question that if the internal rack does not seize either full open or closed that the other issue is the gears jamming, stripping teeth and rendering the pump dead, since no rebuild parts are available to the aftermarket pump rebuilders. Freeing up a stuck rack is sometimes possible and may last as long or short as a roll of the dice, but its still better than the expense of a brand new IP at today's retail market prices.
I am a believer that fuel that might run with no problem on a couple of your tractors MIGHT not get the job done WITHOUT additives for your Kioti. If it were me I might be inclined to tweak the mixture for at least your Kioti by adding a proven lubricity enhancer, just for peace of mind, and the off chance that the close, or too close tolerances of the Kioti's IP might benefit from added lubricity, and you might not encounter the same problem sometime down the road; which I'm certain you want to avoid at any reasonable effort/minimal cost. Just my 2 cents.