Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency

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   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #111  
And all this time I thought it was the bumps that were bouncing me around when I went faster on the tractor- I know now. It was the wind drag- trying to blow me off the seat when I shifted from 2nd to 3rd in medium range! I'll have to start wearing that seatbelt!:D
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #112  
Maybe if you put a spoiler up front you would cut your fuel use in half:laughing:
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #113  
... the origional post was for comparing power for a car @30 mph and 60mph...
I was actually referring to your comments challenging Redneck in Training on his statement that it takes 8 times the power to go twice as fast, though Domush's original post seems to have been almost forgotten in all of this.

I don't understand why you seem to come down so harshly on those who make accurate declaratory statements, then say things like this:
Wind resistance is only a part of the load, and it's proportion varies with the speed, At 30mph there are many significant, much more linear losses than wind drag,

While that may or may not be true, it only seems fair that you demonstrate by example when being so demanding of other people, particularly on a thread that isn't even originally yours.

Back to the original topic, there IS scientific data out there, on the specific machine we are talking about, comparing fuel usage at reduced RPM settings. The difference is about 0.2 gallons per hour at about 50% of the available power. Running at 1890 RPM vs 2746 RPM (about 150 RPM above rated engine speed) saves 0.197 gallons per hour, and increases the fuel efficiency of the engine from 0.723 pounds of fuel per horsepower hour to 0.611.

It is clearly silly to worry about additional fuel use on this machine from aerodynamic drag from the tractor. Spinning the blades faster causes more drag, but gains cutting efficacy. As Domush has already suggested, he can throttle back his tractor until either lugging occurs or cut quality is unacceptable, and increase engine speed a bit from there. In the overall scheme of things, there is probably not any meaningful improvement in fuel economy for him, at least in comparison to the noise reduction or other operator comfort improvements. Even at the high fuel prices here, the cost difference is under a dollar per hour. If operator comfort is increased markedly, that is well worth doing, in my book.

From my perspective, I think there is much more hazard to a CUT tractor engine from lugging when the load markedly increases, or from ineffective/insufficient air filtration in a dusty environment than there is running the machine at rated engine speed. Subjectively, it seems far more of these 30 year old diesel tractors have been damaged from overheating trouble than from being operated at the upper end of their rated engine speed and being simply worn out.
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #114  
284 International said:
I was actually referring to your comments challenging Redneck in Training on his statement that it takes 8 times the power to go twice as fast, though Domush's original post seems to have been almost forgotten in all of this.

I don't understand why you seem to come down so harshly on those who make accurate declaratory statements, then say things like this:

While that may or may not be true, it only seems fair that you demonstrate by example when being so demanding of other people, particularly on a thread that isn't even originally yours.

From my perspective, I think there is much more hazard to a CUT tractor engine from lugging when the load markedly increases, or from ineffective/insufficient air filtration in a dusty environment than there is running the machine at rated engine speed. Subjectively, it seems far more of these 30 year old diesel tractors have been damaged from overheating trouble than from being operated at the upper end of their rated engine speed and being simply worn out.

I agree with most of what you have posted including people being unfriendly in their response. Amen to that.

I do have a couple direct questions though about your post. Could you explain what your concerns are with the air filtration? I expect you are referring to the cyclonic swirling action spinning out some of the dust but not sure. If so, do you think this out weights the fact less dust would be airborne at a lower RPM? I trail ride motorcycles and when I follow someone in the dust, I try to stay out of the throttle. I know this is getting deep but just want to see your thoughts.

Also, if engine lugging isn't taking place due to light brush or an oversized tractor, would you expect to save any appreciable life on your equipment by throttling down a little? A car example would be running at say 1000 rpms below redline say around 5000 rpms (well within designed specifications) traveling at a low speed of say 30 mph vs the same 30 mph at a comfortable 1700 rpms (higher gear). I will experiment with my select shift truck and watch the instantaneous mpg and report back the fuel savings.

The unfortunate trait of most tractors is that most of us don't have a multi speed pto to lower engine revs in light conditions and that would be a great feature.
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #115  
The point is that half rpm doesn't mean half fuel consumption. The fuel consumption might be marginally lower or higher depending on many variables. The same is true about wear. Can you mow at lower rpm? Sure, but the benefits (beside of operator comfort) might not be as great as most people think.
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #116  
...Could you explain what your concerns are with the air filtration?...I trail ride motorcycles and when I follow someone in the dust, I try to stay out of the throttle....

Also, if engine lugging isn't taking place due to light brush or an oversized tractor, would you expect to save any appreciable life on your equipment by throttling down a little? A car example would be running at say 1000 rpms below redline say around 5000 rpms (well within designed specifications) traveling at a low speed of say 30 mph vs the same 30 mph at a comfortable 1700 rpms (higher gear). I will experiment with my select shift truck and watch the instantaneous mpg and report back the fuel savings.

On the topic of air filtration, I mostly meant simply that there is some amount of dust that gets past the filter, no matter what. Some filters work better than others, and filtration is a balance of factors. For instance, our dirt bikes use oiled foam, usually, as the filter medium, even though they are maintenance intensive, don't filter particularly well, and are expensive to service and replace. However, they are able to be made to fit the small, tight, oddly-shaped airboxes that modern motorcycle design requires, and flow enough air to feed the high horsepower engines. They also don't become unusable if moistened by water, as paper filters do. The design requirements of other parts of the bike, then, are dictating what filter style we use.

On some tractors there are air filters sold that are supposed to fit, but in reality do not. (Specifically, NAPA sells a filter for one of my Yanmar machines that is about 1/8" too short) I have seen many tractors with oil bath air filters running without any oil in the reservoir, and seen machines without covers over the air filter box. Sucking dirt into the system, to me, must be much more damaging than running the engine at its design RPM.

If lower RPM makes less dust, and lowers the filtering load on the intake system, I don't see how that wouldn't help. My rotary cutter doesn't work unless it is spun up fairly fast, and if it is cutting well, it is making dust. That's my machine in my conditions, though, not a universally applicable law.

I don't think the majority of wear in a tractor engine comes from RPM. As an example: the current industrial version of the Yanmar 3T72 in my tractor is rated at 23.6 horsepower, at 3600 RPM rather than 18 horsepower at 2600 RPM in the tractor. The service intervals on the industrial engines are usually longer, and the expected life is, as well. The operating environment for an industrial engine is probably presumed to be much cleaner than that of a tractor. Engine RPM doesn't seem to be the longevity issue in design, within some bounds, but intermittent power ratings are higher than continuous ratings across the board, while engine RPM is frequently the same.

I don't think that fuel consumption correlates directly to engine life. The car engine at 4 to 5 thousand RPM will certainly burn more fuel at cruise speed vs being in overdrive. Also, car engines are not really intended to operate for more than brief periods at maximum RPM or power, whereas the tractor engines are designed to do exactly that. I think the different requirements of the designs lead to different outcomes. In other words, I don't think running my tractor engine at its rated 2600 RPM all day mowing is equivalent to running my pickup all day at 5000 RPM. I think it is more equivalent to running an Cessna 172 at 2500 RPM all day, or the pickup at over the range of 1500 to 4500 RPM. This is their intended operating range, and the life expectancy would be more in line with what the factory expects.

Lycoming, for instance, bases their cruise RPM based on fractional power settings, not cruise RPM per se. As I recall, the 172 I flew had an engine manual that recommended 65% or less power output for maximum engine life, with oil, cylinder head, and exhaust temperature ranges suggested. The RPM for that power setting varied, of course, over a few hundred RPM, about like a tractor's recommended operating range.

In that context, then, I would expect any engine life benefits to be from reduced power settings, not from the lower RPM itself. This is all conjecture on my part, based on some evidence. I'm certainly not an expert, but it makes sense to me.

I think in the overall sum, it is much more important to keep the air, oil, and fuel fresh and clean, and the engine and fluids at recommended operating temperatures than anything else. I think operating at lower engine speed presents more opportunity for harm than operating at high speed, but that the other factors matter more.
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #117  
284 International said:
On the topic of air filtration, I mostly meant simply that there is some amount of dust that gets past the filter, no matter what. Some filters work better than others, and filtration is a balance of factors. For instance, our dirt bikes use oiled foam, usually, as the filter medium, even though they are maintenance intensive, don't filter particularly well, and are expensive to service and replace. However, they are able to be made to fit the small, tight, oddly-shaped airboxes that modern motorcycle design requires, and flow enough air to feed the high horsepower engines. They also don't become unusable if moistened by water, as paper filters do. The design requirements of other parts of the bike, then, are dictating what filter style we use.

On some tractors there are air filters sold that are supposed to fit, but in reality do not. (Specifically, NAPA sells a filter for one of my Yanmar machines that is about 1/8" too short) I have seen many tractors with oil bath air filters running without any oil in the reservoir, and seen machines without covers over the air filter box. Sucking dirt into the system, to me, must be much more damaging than running the engine at its design RPM.

If lower RPM makes less dust, and lowers the filtering load on the intake system, I don't see how that wouldn't help. My rotary cutter doesn't work unless it is spun up fairly fast, and if it is cutting well, it is making dust. That's my machine in my conditions, though, not a universally applicable law.

I don't think the majority of wear in a tractor engine comes from RPM. As an example: the current industrial version of the Yanmar 3T72 in my tractor is rated at 23.6 horsepower, at 3600 RPM rather than 18 horsepower at 2600 RPM in the tractor. The service intervals on the industrial engines are usually longer, and the expected life is, as well. The operating environment for an industrial engine is probably presumed to be much cleaner than that of a tractor. Engine RPM doesn't seem to be the longevity issue in design, within some bounds, but intermittent power ratings are higher than continuous ratings across the board, while engine RPM is frequently the same.

I don't think that fuel consumption correlates directly to engine life. The car engine at 4 to 5 thousand RPM will certainly burn more fuel at cruise speed vs being in overdrive. Also, car engines are not really intended to operate for more than brief periods at maximum RPM or power, whereas the tractor engines are designed to do exactly that. I think the different requirements of the designs lead to different outcomes. In other words, I don't think running my tractor engine at its rated 2600 RPM all day mowing is equivalent to running my pickup all day at 5000 RPM. I think it is more equivalent to running an Cessna 172 at 2500 RPM all day, or the pickup at over the range of 1500 to 4500 RPM. This is their intended operating range, and the life expectancy would be more in line with what the factory expects.

Lycoming, for instance, bases their cruise RPM based on fractional power settings, not cruise RPM per se. As I recall, the 172 I flew had an engine manual that recommended 65% or less power output for maximum engine life, with oil, cylinder head, and exhaust temperature ranges suggested. The RPM for that power setting varied, of course, over a few hundred RPM, about like a tractor's recommended operating range.

In that context, then, I would expect any engine life benefits to be from reduced power settings, not from the lower RPM itself. This is all conjecture on my part, based on some evidence. I'm certainly not an expert, but it makes sense to me.

I think in the overall sum, it is much more important to keep the air, oil, and fuel fresh and clean, and the engine and fluids at recommended operating temperatures than anything else. I think operating at lower engine speed presents more opportunity for harm than operating at high speed, but that the other factors matter more.

It appears we have similar interests in hobbies. It has been about 10 years since I have flown. Two teenagers sucking away my flying money. Had to trade flying for motorcycles, 4 wheelers, campers and boating. I will get back once college cost are past me.

I am also an air filter nut. I once purchase a motorcycle used and didn't inspect the filter before purchasing. The original owner reinstalled the filter dry and a year later I was doing a top end from oil consumption. I buy the sticky filter oil and not just motor oil and have always had clean intakes.

I am not sure if you 4' RC has the same gearbox ratio as my 5'er. It might because mine will cut just fine at half throttle if the vegetation is light and that would make the blade tip speed quicker on the 5' mower.

The Cessna 172 doesn't have a constant speed prop so it is under a constant fixed load that can only be changed through rpm at any one moment of time (in level flight). Obviously air density changes will make the loads not constant at a given rpm on varying days or altitude. Aircraft engines have more similarities to a boat engine in that the load is based on throttle only since there isn't gearing options. Boy are those engines a step back in time in technology! Magnetos, no air filters, pushrods, Borg Warner carburetors the size of your head! It is no wonder the service lives are so short. TBO (time before overhaul) is only about 2000 hours and lower for the older ones with Continental engines. That is with detailed preventative maintenance schedules by qualified mechanics. Our motorcycle engines are better engineered than these aircraft engines.

I guess i may be to **** about this rpm thing. I am quick to up shift our manual jeep and my motorcycle if the load is light with no hills. I guess we all need manifold pressure and GPH meters on our tractors and that would put an end to this discussion. :)
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency
  • Thread Starter
#118  
tcreeley said:
And all this time I thought it was the bumps that were bouncing me around when I went faster on the tractor- I know now. It was the wind drag- trying to blow me off the seat when I shifted from 2nd to 3rd in medium range! I'll have to start wearing that seatbelt!:D

no more cargo shorts for me, all of those pockets might act as a parachute! Haha

Sent from my SCH-I500 using TractorByNet
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #119  
Now that I've managed to quit laughing at some of these ridiculous replies, I'm gonna take a stab at this!

I own a commercial mowing business. We mow approximately 15,000 acres a year. Just to pass the time, I've had operators experiment with different mowing techniques. One is varying throttle and ground speeds. FIRST and most important variable is ground speed. That determines quality of finished cut AS MUCH if not more than blade speed. There's a sweet spot in the speed range where safety, efficiency, and time spent reach their zenith. Several of the tractors we use have IVT transmissions. Ground speed can be varied with little regard to engine speed. Then we try to establish an engine/pto speed that gives us the best fuel economy in conjunction with a suitable quality of cut. With a total of 16 tractors, of which there are 7 different models/brands, we've established there is NO hard and fast across the board "rule" that applies to every one. Mowing conditions also need to be taken into consideration.

OK....Bottom line....in SOME cases, running engine UNDER rated PTO speed is more efficient. In SOME cases, running AT rated rpms is most efficient. And in ONE instance, running ABOVE rated rpms gives us the best results. Long story short...No set answer.

SO....IMHO, which is based on (literally) 10's of thousands of hours under the gun, the best I can offer is, "it all depends".....

My opinion? Try several throttle settings over time and see what works best. Don't throttle down so low as to labor the tractor beyond reasonable limits. See what happens.

Just for argument's sake.........One particular tractor I own, by running 250 engine rpm BELOW rated PTO speed, saves around 12 gallons of fuel per 8 hour day, while accomplishing the same amount of acreage in that time by adjusting gearing up to maintain ground speed. That's a 140hp tractor with a 20' batwing, mowing in dense grass/weeds approx. 2-1/2' tall. YRMV

Bill
 
   / Full RPM or high idle? Bush hogging fuel efficiency #120  
Now that I've managed to quit laughing at some of these ridiculous replies, I'm gonna take a stab at this!

I own a commercial mowing business. We mow approximately 15,000 acres a year. Just to pass the time, I've had operators experiment with different mowing techniques. One is varying throttle and ground speeds. FIRST and most important variable is ground speed. That determines quality of finished cut AS MUCH if not more than blade speed. There's a sweet spot in the speed range where safety, efficiency, and time spent reach their zenith. Several of the tractors we use have IVT transmissions. Ground speed can be varied with little regard to engine speed. Then we try to establish an engine/pto speed that gives us the best fuel economy in conjunction with a suitable quality of cut. With a total of 16 tractors, of which there are 7 different models/brands, we've established there is NO hard and fast across the board "rule" that applies to every one. Mowing conditions also need to be taken into consideration.

We've run a few tractors for a few years, long enough to get thousands upon thousands of hours to compare.

OK....Bottom line....in SOME cases, running engine UNDER rated PTO speed is more efficient. In SOME cases, running AT rated rpms is most efficient. And in ONE instance, running ABOVE rated rpms gives us the best results. Long story short...No set answer.

SO....IMHO, which is based on (literally) 10's of thousands of hours under the gun, the best I can offer is, "it all depends".....

My opinion? Try several throttle settings over time and see what works best. Don't throttle down so low as to labor the tractor beyond reasonable limits. See what happens.

Just for argument's sake.........One particular tractor I own, by running 250 engine rpm BELOW rated PTO speed, saves around 12 gallons of fuel per 8 hour day, while accomplishing the same amount of acreage in that time by adjusting gearing up to maintain ground speed. That's a 140hp tractor with a 20' batwing, mowing in dense grass/weeds approx. 2-1/2' tall. YRMV

Bill

- - - Updated - - -

Now that I've managed to quit laughing at some of these ridiculous replies, I'm gonna take a stab at this!

Bill

What gives you the right to call the honest replies of other posters ridiculous???

Pretty high and mighty... I guess not much changes!
 
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