How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ?

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   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #441  
I agree totally , the 22 is very lethal at its effective range.

What is a very good .22 hollow point round? How should they be stored?
I have a .22 rifle but I also have a .22 conversion bolt and mag. for my .223/5.56 AR.
Not long ago, I was shooting .22 out of a Ruger pistol, and I was surprised by the number of no-fires. I suspect that the shells had gotten too old, though I suppose it could have been the pistol. But the pistol had never failed before.
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #442  
That would be our duty to resist no doubt about that we all would resist its just doubtful we would win the war. my .002

Car Doc ~ I totally agree....resistance would be huge and even the police and military...many of them would refuse to kill us and would be more concerned about taking care of their families and would desert ..we saw a little of that with Katrina...If the US govt. ever decided to move against us...the citizens..they better remember each state has a national guard and I do not believe the National guard troops will obey orders to kill us and I don't believe they will stand still and not engage federal troops who try to kill us...Now add to that mix ...all of the citizens that are armed and many are ex military themselves...the US govt. would lose the war..they might win some skirmishes and small battles but they would lose the war and all the officials who started it would be executed no doubt...they must know that...I mean look what happens in other countries that are not even armed like our citizens are...the dictators lose in the end and all those who supported them....One last thing...don't forget about foreign intervention...If our federal govt. turned on the citizens ...there would be other countries that would help the citizens....my :2cents:
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #443  
As far as survival I think a 22 lr is more practical for those on a fixed budget. I have high velocity rifles but ammo is exspensive. For practicality I'd take a 22 less noise, so not everyone knows your location, and deadly for deer in a given range.

Oh-no, you are bypassing firing power and more fire power??!:D

Consider throwing in a 410 or 28 gauge shot gun. Used to be one could buy a drilling with a rifle barrel or an over under shotgun rifle combination.:thumbsup:
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #444  
Whilst everybody else is determined to have more firepower than the next bloke – a sure way to end up killing each other, I will try to meet the request of the OP in his most recent post and get back on track about self-sufficiency and how we would do it.

This is an outline of a proposed plan for if and when the power goes off, there is no fossil fuel, and food is DIY. The scenario includes a reasonably slow move towards this position, at least sufficient time to move four people from Scotland to Portugal, and not a sudden catastrophe where only some survive and just about everything is destroyed. Gun ownership is fairly common, but not universal, and restricted in numbers and type of weapon - a shotgun and a rifle probably being the max anybody has, so gangs of heavily armed raiders are unlikely.

I intend to stay where I am and bring in the others, although one couple is only five miles away and living on a similar property, with less buildings, and ideally would remain there. We already share some farming equipment and work together on building some we need and cannot buy at an economic cost. The house is an enormous 3-storey stone and concrete building that was formerly an olive mill and with several separate entrance doors into various parts of the building. All doors are steel and the windows have vertical steel bars so the building cannot be entered that way. It is wired and plumbed. Several buildings also wired, plumbed, steel doors and lockable, totalling about 7000 sq. ft. with some set up for various livestock, others general storage. Included in the building are a bakehouse with domed oven, a meat house, dairy and cheese store, olive storage bins, and a large wine making room and cellar.

The land totals about 16 acres, all ploughable, and has 483 olive trees, plus various fruit and nut trees and a productive garden area next to the house. The other property is similar in size with less olive trees. We have adequate machinery and the ability to repair and make equipment.

The group, and the “end of the known world” has been discussed in a semi-jocular fashion, comprises my wife and myself (60s) the other couple nearby (50-ish?) my son and his wife (29) and a former school friend of his and his wife, also 29. We have, I believe, an exceptional range of knowledge and skills amongst us as well as being of above average intelligence, most being University educated. This in itself means that the group are able to learn.

At a professional level we have a medical doctor, a veterinarian, two scientists – chemistry and physics, a teacher of cookery and needlework, a computer and electronics whiz with very good mechanics knowledge, and accountancy and administrative degrees. Now some might question the more academic qualifications, but the knowledge of related subjects makes the scientists useful in many of the things we would need to tackle, and an ability to crunch numbers or organise rostas, maintain supply records, crop rotation details etc. are also required. I have the most farming and gardening experience (all my life) but everybody else is countrified with a combined experience in seven countries around the world. Several languages are spoken. Everybody can ride a horse and most have good shooting experience. The four youngsters, not blood related to each other, are keen hill climbers and walkers, capable of carrying a heavy pack for many miles.

Skills wise, we can keep our machinery going so long as we have no major parts to replace. Animal power is within our reach if tractors fail. Many people around about now use donkeys or mules, and I have seen cows as draught animals. The olives can supply oil to spare for fuel, plus we have PV, generators, compressors, pumps, and the ability to make methane, ethanol and grape spirit from wine (presently legal in Portugal with stills and other equipment readily available, and absolutely everybody in the country has grapes) so fuel, and drink, would not be a problem. We would have animals for meat, milk, cheese, butter and clothing if required with the ability to shear, kill, skin, tan, butcher, design clothes, felt, spin, knit and sew whatever is required. I am sure weaving would not be too big a problem. Cooking and food preservation skills are excellent. The long growing season and reasonable temperatures, rarely above 100 and never below 25, means we can grow most temperate crops. A river and farm ponds are useful for fish, irrigation and boreholes for water, although there are numerous potable springs every few miles along the highways.

Most of Portugal is still a peasant based economy so there are hundreds of thousands of people with the land, equipment and skills to survive, plus a family to assist in the work. Consequently I do not expect any large scale violence if modern ways cease and I believe the country will simply get on with life as it always has. Like my wife and myself, most of these older people have lived with very little money so they have had to fend for themselves and learn to live without buying power.

So far as bartering is concerned I should think most people will have the same items, but assuming there is still some urban life, then their skills could be bartered for some of our food and drink. There is a lot of vacant land around the country too, huge numbers of former small farms complete with a building, olive trees and grape vines, that are no longer occupied, including most of the land surrounding me, and there is a lot of space for present townspeople to move out and start farming again. Many of them were probably brought up on farms so would adjust. All in all, it is probably one of the countries least likely to suffer a collapse of modern society.
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #445  
Old McDonald, I would love to see Portugal and Spain someday, if the world doesnt end this month:)

In answer to your question about who has been totally cutoff from society, what do you consider cut off? Since my daughters left in Sept other than a couple of quick visits from my wife I have been alone until a couple of days ago when a friend came out to hunt. There is a village I went to a community potluck for Thanksgiving, 10 miles by boat, but no roads and no one else around. An occasional boat travels by (about 1 every week or so) of course no stores or any support closer than 90 air miles 130 boat miles and yet I dont consider myself cut off at all. Besides talking with my wife daily, my kids weekly, friends whenever by sat phone, skype, etc I have all you fine folks on tractor by net:)

A good friend spent most of the winter in the Wrangells many years ago and even there Air Force jets would blast thru his valley weekly and two private planes just dropped in to visit and another had engine trouble and stayed a week. And of course am radio waves go everywhere so even without satellite internet, telephone, and xm still would have am radio. So not sure if it is possible in this day and age to be totally cut off.
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #446  
I have to think I'm not the only one that thinks this way .While inviting the less prepared into "your "group is admirable to Me it just seems a way for the "save me " crowd to keep doing what they already were to take care of themselves NOTHING ! Now there are things some will need to barter with and some will have to have outside contact and I am interested in what some of "you" think those items might be ?:anyone:

I imagine there will be some need to barter for medical services.

I know thgere are medics that are fine with force adn guns.. but the vast majority I know are not gun people.

in a last as long as you can EOC situation with a small group trying to sustain itself. i don't expect everyone to have to be 'enforcer' types. There WILL be places for a medic, and other tasks . lets face it.. in an emergency.. you can wear the same clothes for a week or two.. but at some point.. you want a washed shirt.. and someone to do group cooking of meals. that means there will be place for enforcers, medics, and domestics. domestics will corral and tend to kids and assist the medic.. who will be keeping the wounded alive..e tc.. you will also have the lighter faster stealthier types that will be good for making scouting and supply runs... to scavenge..e tc..

the group I hang with, we all have overlapping fields of study.. between all of us we are fairly well covered.

for instance.. in our standerd card playing group each sunday.. it's 6 guys... 4 of them are ex military. navy, marines, army, air force. me and the other guy are civies. i'm an engineer and a gun guy.. the other civy is in the medical field.. the air force guy has first responder trainging, and the army guy has some sort of nursing and paramedic degree. we all shoot.. the other civy is probably the least gun-y but that's ok.4 of us cook very well. all of us are handy with tools and mechanics.. and can fabricate things, including sewing... 2 of us relaod ammunition. 1 guy is a it tech, with 32 of us very computer oriented.

not perfect.. but well rounded group .. and I'd trust all of em with my life.. etc.. we all act like brothers....
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #447  
Rick, I thought you were the most likely to have been on your own, but I did mean no contact whatsoever with other human beings, and no means of making contact.

We can and do make contact with others these days whenever we want, but when we were cut off by snow for several weeks, admittedly 1978/9 winter, we did not have the ability to even communicate with others. It could happen again, although I accept what you say about radio. On the other hand, how many people are now going to add radio to their stockpile, and those who want to go and hide in the outback probably do not want radio in case somebody traces them. I think isolation will, in time, get to these folks.
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #449  
Read this article....I think the government is already making plans to put down any insurrection or anarchy that may occur...Looks like there's a real chance we are in for a rough future, see what you think?

How the U.S. Military Would Crush a Tea Party Rebellion - Forbes

Yea, but the Tea Party insurrection is not quite as likely as a Zombie insurrection. If you read the comments, people seem ticked off that they are pretending yet again that the Tea Party was anything other than one of the most orderly protest groups we have ever seen.
 
   / How self sufficient are you ? Honestly ? #450  
Yea, but the Tea Party insurrection is not quite as likely as a Zombie insurrection. If you read the comments, people seem ticked off that they are pretending yet again that the Tea Party was anything other than one of the most orderly protest groups we have ever seen.

I know...the left and media love to portray the Tea Party as the evil doers....if you notice, begrudging they acknowledged in the article the left has some groups that could also start an insurrection etc. Also notice White Supremacists are always mentioned along with right wing militias...yet the black panthers, or crips and bloods ( black gangs ) are never mentioned....however, the riots and chaos we have seen are not from the tea party, white supremacist groups but rather are from the gangs and left wing groups, like the 99% crowd...all propaganda by a leftist media....
 
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