Selling land that has neighbors' grandfathered gas lines crossing it but no easment

[KYErik]

I bought a 15 acre hay field next to my house/field about 8 years ago (it is outlined in red in the drawing). It was a great place for the wife to ride her horse, but now the horse is gone. The local farmer who has been cutting hay off it for the last 15 years has been very anxious to buy it and row crop it (he owns the adjacent field and wants to annex this field) and I am serious about selling over the summer. The issue is that there are two private natural gas lines running across the property and no mention of an easement in the deed (I knew about the gas lines when I bought the property- they are blue dotted lines in the drawing). This property is on a little spur road (black line along the bottom of the drawing) so it was my understanding that the gas company just placed the meters along the road (see drawing) and required the owners to run their own connecting lines the rest of the way. I have attached a crude drawing.

My field, house A and house B were all part of a larger family estate- that is why the private gas lines seem to cross property lines- it was all owned by the same family member so they used the shortest path possible to run the gas lines. When I bought the property from my neighbor B's daughter, neighbor B told me that many years ago it had been row cropped and once a farmer was chisel plowing deep and hit his gas line (where the blue X is on the map). With it just being cut for hay while I owned it, I wasn't worried about the gas lines.

The original Neighbor B has since sold his house and moved into town. New neighbor B is a lady that can get excited about things going wrong- but I work on her lawnmower from time to time when it breaks down and this spring I used my tractor/4 foot tiller to till up a small garden spot in her yard at her request, so I have a good neighborly relationship with her.

Neighbor A's gas line is no longer hooked to the gas meter.

As I sell this property, I know that ethically/legally, I need to at least verbally disclose the presence of the gas lines- especially since I know that the farmer plans to row crop the field if he buys it and so there is potential for him to hit the active gas line to neighbor B with tillage equipment and someone could get badly hurt if there was an explosion (best case scenario is that there would be a large gas bill and a large repair bill for patching the line on short notice).

6-7 years ago, when I placed a fence along the property line in front of house A and beside the gas meters, I called the utility locating phone number. They were able to accurately locate/mark the private gas line across the field to house A, but they couldn't track the gas line very far across the field toward house B (they could only ID it for 150 feet or so)- I could just tell that it went diagonally across the field taking the shortest possible path.


Which option do you think is the best?

Option A: Simply verbally tell the prospective buyer about the gas lines and declare it in writing in the sales contract (knowing that I will need to give a reasonable amount in price to make up for his possible future expense at moving it)

Option B: Preemptively pay a contractor to bury the gas lines extra deep/move them to the edge of the property line before the sales contact is even written (about 400-500 feet worth of lines- anyone know the typical rate per foot to do this? there will be 50 feet or so of sandstone but nothing a backhoe can't dig through)

Option C: Since neighbor A's line isn't even connected to the meter, just offer to pay neighbor B $4-6K to abandon their gas line and put that in writing. They would need to have their furnace, water heater and possibly cook stove switched over to electric so maybe $6K wouldn't be enough...


What are your thoughts? I guessing that someone here has been on either end of a similar situation...

 

[greasemonkeyok]

How about D) notify the buyer in writing the lines exist, you don't know exactly where they are, and let him decide whether he wants you to deal with the owners. He may want to handle matters himself, or he may want you to.

It may not be a good idea to give him your map just in case the lines are not where indicated. If you do show him the map, mark it clearly that this is just your guess as to the location of the lines.

 

[brin]

How about D) notify the buyer in writing the lines exist, you don't know exactly where they are, and let him decide whether he wants you to deal with the owners. He may want to handle matters himself, or he may want you to.

It may not be a good idea to give him your map just in case the lines are not where indicated. If you do show him the map, mark it clearly that this is just your guess as to the location of the lines.

I agree, Kye, you mentioned the farmer who has been cutting hay of your parcel is now " Very Anxious " to buy it....Now based on that that information if it were me....I would simply say nothing to him at all...I would write into the sales contract a simple sentence disclosing the existence of a gas pipeline and leave it at that...my understanding is all you are required to do is disclose a fact to all parties...If you get all hyper about it and make it a big deal he will get excited too...and the whole thing can get blown out of proportion...If he wants the land bad enough let him pay to correct anything....why should you discount your price up front...wait and see what he says...Keep in mind the gas company buries those gas lines very deep, especially in agricultural areas ...they know the land is being plowed etc....:2cents: Good Luck.

 

[Dr Dave]

I would contact the gas company first, ask them what is required by you, during the sale.

Dave

 

[brin]

I would contact the gas company first, ask them what is required by you, during the sale.

Dave

Why would the gas company have to be involved...? I hate to see him turning over rocks that don't need to be turned..one of them will surely have a snake under it....Disclosure is all I would do...Just one line in the contract and let it go at that....All buyers have a due dillegence responsibility...and your mention of a gas line is fine and gas lines commonly run all over this country in pastures , in subdivisions and under streets...no big deal unless you make it one...Your choice.,I would also include the drawing you posted here as an exhibit to the sales contract...

 

[joshuabardwell]

If you want a definitive answer as to what you are required to disclose, either ask a real estate lawyer, or maybe ask a realtor. The gas company, the folks on TBN, and your cousin Earl who sold some property with a gas line on it this one time, are not authoritative. IMO, of course.

 

[orezok]

I would contact the gas company first, ask them what is required by you, during the sale.

Dave

Typically the lines beyond the meter are private and the gas company usually will not get involved due to liability. Just notify the buyer in writing and let him deal with it if he wants.

Remember, No good deed goes unpunished! Don't take on the liability of future gas line problems.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

The gas line that is disconnected is not a gas line at all, just a buried pipe. I agree that you should just disclose the existence of the lines, IN WRITING, at the time of the sale. Verbal disclosure means nothing. Let the new owner deal with it as he sees fit. At best, he may just need to avoid running a subsoiler knife in that area, which would mean very little if anything,

 

[RickB]

Option E: Notify neighbor lady and request that her gas line be removed from your property, abandoned, or provide evidence of an easement allowing it to exist.

 

[brin]

Option E: Notify neighbor lady and request that her gas line be removed from your property, abandoned, or provide evidence of an easement allowing it to exist.

:thumbsup: Nice Rick...E is a great option as well...

 

[greasemonkeyok]

I agree, Kye, you mentioned the farmer who has been cutting hay of your parcel is now " Very Anxious " to buy it....Now based on that that information if it were me....I would simply say nothing to him at all...I would write into the sales contract a simple sentence disclosing the existence of a gas pipeline and leave it at that...my understanding is all you are required to do is disclose a fact to all parties...If you get all hyper about it and make it a big deal he will get excited too...and the whole thing can get blown out of proportion...If he wants the land bad enough let him pay to correct anything....why should you discount your price up front...wait and see what he says...Keep in mind the gas company buries those gas lines very deep, especially in agricultural areas ...they know the land is being plowed etc....:2cents: Good Luck.

Bob has a good point from the standpoint of negotiating the price.

 

[greasemonkeyok]

Option E: Notify neighbor lady and request that her gas line be removed from your property, abandoned, or provide evidence of an easement allowing it to exist.

Downside of this approach is now you have three parties in the mix. That could go South in a hurry, and the cost of lawyers could make the deal less profitable. I could see neighbor lady wanting you to pay the cost of moving her line.

 

[RickB]

If you want a definitive answer as to what you are required to disclose, either ask a real estate lawyer, or maybe ask a realtor. The gas company, the folks on TBN, and your cousin Earl who sold some property with a gas line on it this one time, are not authoritative. IMO, of course.

Option E: Notify neighbor lady and request that her gas line be removed from your property, abandoned, or provide evidence of an easement allowing it to exist.

Downside of this approach is now you have three parties in the mix. That could go South in a hurry, and the cost of lawyers could make the deal less profitable. I could see neighbor lady wanting you to pay the cost of moving her line.

Real property law varies greatly from state to state. That's why joshua's answer is still the best.

 

[newbury]

Consult a lawyer. My ethics would have me saying something about the gas line (and put it in the contract) instead of waiting for a blowup at closing.

What would you want done if you were buying? What would YOU consider fair?

 

[dave1949]

Interesting situation. I'd say you should consult a lawyer before saying or doing anything, then proceed.

The neighbor lady apparently purchased her home unawares perhaps that the gas coming to her house is using your lot without an easement. I'm not sure her normal due diligence at purchase would include knowing that, and that may make a legal difference. I guess we can assume it was not disclosed to her, which it should have been most likely. She may have recourse from the seller or title insurance co. for the cost of relocating the gas line.

Like Newbury, unless a lawyer says otherwise, I would get the gas line issue disclosed early on, since you know one line has been snagged already and you know he intends to plow. You have to live with these folks, no point in starting a war. But like others said, I wouldn't involve myself in the resolution.

 

[Redbug]

I would disclose the lines since you have a moral obligation to do so. But why can't he put a disclaimer in the sell that it, "will be sold as is"?

 

[Creamer]

You have a legal obligation to disclose the existence of the gas lines in the sale. It needs to be in writing otherwise you do not have proof of your disclosure. You also have a good neighbor ethical responsibility to disclose the location to the best of your knowledge but there should be wording in the agreement that the location is "to the best of your knowledge". A title company will search and find if there is an easement or not. Either way they have been disclosed and the buyer is knowingly purchasing the property with knowledge of their existence and chooses to purchase the property. It becomes his issue or non-issue.

Raising a bunch of red flags is going to stir up a hornet's nest that probably is not going to matter. Either way, if you sell the land with full disclosure, you are out of it and it becomes their problem if it ever is.

 

[unbidden]

Too many options / things to go legally wrong. Hire a real-estate attourney and get things done properly so you don't have to worry about future lawsuits.

 

[KYErik]

Thanks for all of the advice guys. You are right- hiring a contractor to move the line seems like overkill and would get the lady next door all stirred up about getting the gas shut off and hooked back up and when she had a high bill she might think it was leaking.

I wouldn't want to take the gas line away from the neighbor B lady, she is not very well off and her late husband (who bought house B) was a friend of my original "B" neighbor and so she probably let him handle all the details. I really doubt there was a title search or any title insurance in that deal.

I'll mention the gas lines to the farmer when we first begin to talk about price and I'll make sure it is present in writing when I have a lawyer draw up the contract (and make any other notes the attorney recommends). It would just be an acre that the farmer would have to avoid ripping/chisel plowing. I really doubt that a disk would be an issue, but written disclosure will make it his responsibility. There is a 1 foot tall car sized mound and a car sized depression right next to the mound in the draw between the gas meter and house B, these correspond to where the water department hit some sandstone a few years ago when they put in a water line along side the road. I am guessing that the original installers hit sandstone in that spot and so they just placed the gas line shallow in that area (on top of the bedrock). The persons who did the repair probably mounded the dirt up on top of the shallow spot so it would be less likely to be snagged again.

If the farmer gets really concerned about the gas line, then I'll know that his plan is to subdivide the field and sell off lots

 

[orezok]

With the gas line being there for many years, the lady possibly has a prescriptive easement, a situation similar to adverse possession. She may have legal rights. Your attorney will advise.