Question on Maschio tiller HP requirements (and others?)

[jim_wilson]

One of the things on my short list of attachments to acquire - is a tiller. So I've been reading a bunch of the tiller threads here on TBN to get familiar with what is out there and try and narrow down what I want to get. King Kutter and Land Pride seem to get a lot of recommendations - and on the higher end I see Kuhn and Maschio also getting recommended a lot for doing commercial work. The way I look at it is I have one of two ways to go - I can either buy something on the lower end because my immediate need is to just some small lawn installs and occasionally help out a friend or neighbor - or I can invest in something more heavy duty because my longer term goal is to potentially do some tilling for hire or help out some friends who have small farms. I tend to like to buy reliable tools that last a long time - so I'm not adverse to spending on a good tiller if it's worth the money and it's going to get a workout.

This would be run behind a Kubota B3200 with a claimed PTO 23hp.

During the research I ran across Maschio tillers - which I hadn't really heard of before - but they got a lot of good recommendations - especially from people who use them hard commercially. So I started looking into those as a possible option. ( I had spent a good amount of time looking at the Kuhn stuff too). But the Maschio stuff has me a bit confused - they seem to be saying that even some of their smaller tillers have some pretty high horsepower requirements. For instance the AL160 - which is a 64" tiller - is spec'ed as needing 30-60HP. I've seen a number of people here on TBN saying they're running 60" + tillers on tractors with similar HP to my B3200.

Do the Maschio tillers need more HP to properly drive them than some other brands - or maybe the question is: is there something about certain tillers that would require more HP to drive them than other tillers of similar width? Like 4 tines needs less HP than 6 tines?

 

[MtnViewRanch]

One of the things on my short list of attachments to acquire - is a tiller. So I've been reading a bunch of the tiller threads here on TBN to get familiar with what is out there and try and narrow down what I want to get. King Kutter and Land Pride seem to get a lot of recommendations - and on the higher end I see Kuhn and Maschio also getting recommended a lot for doing commercial work. The way I look at it is I have one of two ways to go - I can either buy something on the lower end because my immediate need is to just some small lawn installs and occasionally help out a friend or neighbor - or I can invest in something more heavy duty because my longer term goal is to potentially do some tilling for hire or help out some friends who have small farms. I tend to like to buy reliable tools that last a long time - so I'm not adverse to spending on a good tiller if it's worth the money and it's going to get a workout.



This would be run behind a Kubota B3200 with a claimed PTO 23hp.

During the research I ran across Maschio tillers - which I hadn't really heard of before - but they got a lot of good recommendations - especially from people who use them hard commercially. So I started looking into those as a possible option. ( I had spent a good amount of time looking at the Kuhn stuff too). But the Maschio stuff has me a bit confused - they seem to be saying that even some of their smaller tillers have some pretty high horsepower requirements. For instance the AL160 - which is a 64" tiller - is spec'ed as needing 30-60HP. I've seen a number of people here on TBN saying they're running 60" + tillers on tractors with similar HP to my B3200.

Do the Maschio tillers need more HP to properly drive them than some other brands - or maybe the question is: is there something about certain tillers that would require more HP to drive them than other tillers of similar width? Like 4 tines needs less HP than 6 tines?

Actually 6 tines require less hp. Smaller bites.

 

[jenkinsph]

For a 24ptohp tractor I would recommend a 48" tiller with a large diameter rotor and 6 tines design. You might be able to turn a 60" tiller as I do but it won't till up a given area any faster than the 48" model because you will be limited by your forward speed. You can only till as fast as the combination of tractor and tiller can keep up. I do recommend you get a tiller that will cover your tire tracks and never liked the offset models.

 

[Ed of all trades]

I have 18 hp and a 60" KK tiller, but I do have hydro. Works well.

 

[jim_wilson]

Actually 6 tines require less hp. Smaller bites.

That's one of the things I was wondering - does a 6 tine tiller use the same size or smaller tines than a typical 4 tine tiller.

 

[jim_wilson]

For a 24ptohp tractor I would recommend a 48" tiller with a large diameter rotor and 6 tines design. You might be able to turn a 60" tiller as I do but it won't till up a given area any faster than the 48" model because you will be limited by your forward speed. You can only till as fast as the combination of tractor and tiller can keep up. I do recommend you get a tiller that will cover your tire tracks and never liked the offset models.

The B3200 is a hydro tractor - so if I understand correctly I just adjust the tractor speed to the speed of the tiller?

A 48" tiller is not going to cover the tracks on this tractor - a 54" might - just barely. I can see other benefits to a tiller that will offset: one of them being able to till right up next to something more easily than if you have to get the tractor right up next to that object. But I've also read a lot of people here on TBN who are down on the side shift tillers for some reason.

 

[jim_wilson]

For a 24ptohp tractor I would recommend a 48" tiller with a large diameter rotor and 6 tines design. You might be able to turn a 60" tiller as I do but it won't till up a given area any faster than the 48" model because you will be limited by your forward speed. You can only till as fast as the combination of tractor and tiller can keep up. I do recommend you get a tiller that will cover your tire tracks and never liked the offset models.

I'm also in New England - where I will definitely be coming across a lot of rocks - all things being equal - am I better off hitting a rock at a slower speed with a wider tiller - or whacking it a higher speed with a smaller tiller?

 

[MtnViewRanch]

That's one of the things I was wondering - does a 6 tine tiller use the same size or smaller tines than a typical 4 tine tiller.

Jim, 4 or 6 tines is not what determines the tine length. Typical? :confused3: You think that anything that we deal with is "typical" :laughing:

 

[jim_wilson]

Jim, 4 or 6 tines is not what determines the tine length. Typical? :confused3: You think that anything that we deal with is "typical" :laughing:

That's sort of what I figured. Unlike stuff like ripper shanks for box blades - I figured that tines on tillers probably weren't standardized in any consistent fashion across the industry. The thing that threw me off about the Maschio stuff I was reading was that - where other tiller manufacturers might say you need say 20-40hp for a 55-60 inch tiller - Maschio is saying 40-60 on the literature I saw. So they're saying their tillers take 50-100% more horsepower.

Made me wonder if somebody isn't botching the marketing materials at Maschio and using the upper HP limit they recommend as the required HP instead.

I could see how Maschio *might* require more HP if they are setup with larger tines and more of them - but that isn't very clear from the literature.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

That's sort of what I figured. Unlike stuff like ripper shanks for box blades - I figured that tines on tillers probably weren't standardized in any consistent fashion across the industry. The thing that threw me off about the Maschio stuff I was reading was that - where other tiller manufacturers might say you need say 20-40hp for a 55-60 inch tiller - Maschio is saying 40-60 on the literature I saw. So they're saying their tillers take 50-100% more horsepower.

Made me wonder if somebody isn't botching the marketing materials at Maschio and using the upper HP limit they recommend as the required HP instead.

I could see how Maschio *might* require more HP if they are setup with larger tines and more of them - but that isn't very clear from the literature.

Do they not say what the maximum tilling depth is? I would think that maximum tilling depth would be listed? :confused3: I know that Land Pride shows the digging depth.

 

[jenkinsph]

Jim,
If you need a wider tiller to cover your tracks then do so by all means. I slow down the engine/pto speed when in rocky ground here in the southwest we have plenty of them too. About the tines, the developed rotor diameter is larger on most 6 tine models than the 4 tine models. I don't know that the 6 tine tillers use less hp as they tend to be larger tillers with more depth available. I have a Howard rotovator HR4 60" tiller that I occasionally use behind my garden tractor, really it is a bit much but I inherited it in new condition so to speak and am using what I have. Slow going behind a 18hp (pto hp) tractor and this is a 4 tine tiller capable of about 6 inch depth.. I also have a Deere 673 72" 6 tine tiller that I use with my 4520 tractor this is made by Machio for Deere and is a good tiller too. Both have slip clutches and that is important in tough ground. The Deere/Machio is faster, tills deeper and is my main tiller to use, the Howard is pretty good too and both seem to be pretty tough.

You are correct about using the Hydro tranny to see how fast you can go as for ground speed.

 

[jim_wilson]

Do they not say what the maximum tilling depth is? I would think that maximum tilling depth would be listed? :confused3: I know that Land Pride shows the digging depth.

Good point. I had to go digging for that info but I may have found it.

I also found the info below from Maschio Tillers :

It is very important to select a tiller that is rated to match your tractor horsepower or you will damage the rototiller by running too much power through it. It is best to select a tiller that is as wide as your tractor if you have enough horsepower to run it, otherwise get one that is as wide as your tractor tire centers. Offsetting a tiller or tilling to the insides of the rear tires is not recommended. We recommend 3/4 hp per inch of tillage width as a minimum horsepower requirement. We handle several brands of rototillers. Maschio is our favorite.

So if I do the math for a 60 inch tiller - going by their recommendations - would require 45 HP. Or looking at it another way - for the claimed PTO HP on my tractor - I should be putting about a 31 inch tiller on it.

This is completely different from every other tiller manufacturer I've looked at recommends.

For instance - Landpride says the following for their RTA12 series tillers ( 6.5 inch tilling depth) :

42 & 50: 15-35 HP, 58 & 60: 20-40 HP, 74: 25-50 HP

The Kuhn EL 23-150 ( 60inch wide) - says minimum of 12 HP or maximum of 25 HP - max working depth of 5.1 inches

the Kuhn EL 43-150 ( 56 inch wide) - says minimum of 18 hp or max of 40 - max working depth of 6 inches


The Iowa farm site has a bunch of info on the Maschio tillers

Iowa Farm Equipment -- Maschio L Series Rotary Tillers

Looks like the L series has a 6 inch till depth - and their requirements are somewhat in line with the Landpride and Kuhn stuff above.

An L125 model - 54 inch wide - says it needs 20-25 HP. I'm assuming that is to go the full 6 inch depth.

If I jump up to the H series - which says has a 9" depth - the HP requirements to up to 35-60HP for a 57" tiller.
Iowa Farm Equipment -- Maschio H Series Rotary Tillers


When sizing a tiller - is it reasonable to assume that - given a number of tillers with say 4 tines - and certain width - tilling at the same depth - that the HP requirements should stay pretty much the same?

And that the seemingly additional HP requirements in the Maschio specs are more of a function of the fact that they seem to have a deeper maximum till depth than say the Landpride or the Kuhn (or probably most other manufacturers) ??



Another side question: is additional weight on a tiller a good thing - to keep it planted on the ground?

 

[jim_wilson]

Jim,
If you need a wider tiller to cover your tracks then do so by all means. I slow down the engine/pto speed when in rocky ground here in the southwest we have plenty of them too. About the tines, the developed rotor diameter is larger on most 6 tine models than the 4 tine models. I don't know that the 6 tine tillers use less hp as they tend to be larger tillers with more depth available. I have a Howard rotovator HR4 60" tiller that I occasionally use behind my garden tractor, really it is a bit much but I inherited it in new condition so to speak and am using what I have. Slow going behind a 18hp (pto hp) tractor and this is a 4 tine tiller capable of about 6 inch depth.. I also have a Deere 673 72" 6 tine tiller that I use with my 4520 tractor this is made by Machio for Deere and is a good tiller too. Both have slip clutches and that is important in tough ground. The Deere/Machio is faster, tills deeper and is my main tiller to use, the Howard is pretty good too and both seem to be pretty tough.

You are correct about using the Hydro tranny to see how fast you can go as for ground speed.

Thanks for the info. Good to know that some of the Deere tillers are actually made by Maschio.

I took a quick trip over to Ebay to look for Deere tillers - and judging by some of the pictures - I can see that the Deere tillers look just like the Maschio stuff.

Not sure if I'd want to stick a green tiller behind my orange tractor - but I guess that's what paint is for !

 

[MtnViewRanch]

If you have 2 tillers, 60" wide, both rated to dig 6" deep and one has 4 tines per rotor and the other has 6 tines per rotor, everything is the same other than the amount of tines per rotor, the 6 tine unit will need less HP to do the job.

 

[jim_wilson]

If you have 2 tillers, 60" wide, both rated to dig 6" deep and one has 4 tines per rotor and the other has 6 tines per rotor, everything is the same other than the amount of tines per rotor, the 6 tine unit will need less HP to do the job.

I'm assuming that also means "all other conditions being equal" , power loss thru the drivetrain, soil conditions - etc.

So a 6 tine unit - even if it was rated to till to a depth of 9 inches - going up against a 4 tine unit rated to till to 6 inches - would still use less HP - as long as both units were only tilling at 6 inches.....

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I'm assuming that also means "all other conditions being equal" , power loss thru the drivetrain, soil conditions - etc.

So a 6 tine unit - even if it was rated to till to a depth of 9 inches - going up against a 4 tine unit rated to till to 6 inches - would still use less HP - as long as both units were only tilling at 6 inches.....

While this may indeed be true, that is not what I am saying. You are talking about turning a bigger unit. :confused3: With everything being the same, other than one has 4 tines and one has 6 tines, (both units rated to dig 6") then the 6 tine unit requires less HP.

 

[DaveOmak]

I purchased a used JD (Frontier) Maschio tiller from the rental dep't at a JD dealer 8 yrs ago.... replaced a few tines... and I run it on my NAA.... You don't need any where near 40 hp to run it... My tiller is the 60" wide unit... my NAA has 30 PTO H.P. or so one source says..... has always done the job... and very well .... Dave

 

[oldballs]

It seems to me that one of the important variables is whether the ground has been worked of recent. Breaking sod and working previously plowed ground makes a big differance. The demands would be noticeably different. just 0.02