Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

[Boeing]

Ever wonder WHY the entire world (other than the US) has DIESELS in just about everything? Little cars, small pickups from TOYOTA, NISSON, SUBURU, AND FORD, GM..... med and large cars, virtually ALL pickup trucks, etc. And the kicker?.....Many of these vehicles in foreign countries carry the name of FORD, GM, etc...... I saw a beautiful Jeep 4 dr. Wrangler DIESEL in Santa Domingo a few months ago. Not avail in the U.S....WHY?
WHY?......when we all hear "END THE DEPENDANCE ON FOREIGN OIL!!!" WHY would the government want us NOT to get 30% better milage? less tax revenue? Could THAT be the answer? IS it the OIL interests that prevent this? Less fuel SOLD? Is it DETROIT who doesn't want to put out engines that might go 400,000 miles?
I fly throughout Europe and South/Central America and see almost EVERY MOTOR VEHICLE is powered by DIESEL. They have expensive fuel and this is the way that they have addressed it.
WHY...are these options not available to us? WHY...can we not get diesels in our small-mid size cars while other nations can? WHY....can we not even import them????????

Here's a clue from a "Graymarket" search....
United States
The United States continues to use a unique set of safety and emission regulations administered by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for motor vehicles, which differ significantly from the international UN Regulations used throughout the rest of the world. Vehicle manufacturers thus face considerable expense to type-certify a vehicle for U.S. sale, at a cost estimated to be upward of USD $2 million per vehicle model. This cost particularly affects low-volume manufacturers and models, most notably the makers of high end sports cars. However, larger companies such as Alfa Romeo and Peugeot have also cited costs of 吐ederalizing their vehicle lineups as a disincentive to re-enter the U.S. market.

NHTSA and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulations criminalise the possession of a vehicle not meeting U.S. standards. Even Canadian-market vehicles may not meet these requirements. Exceptions exist for foreign nationals touring the U.S. in their own vehicle and for cars imported for show or display purposes.

Because of the unavailability of certain car models, demand for grey market vehicles arose in the late 1970s. Importing them into the US involved modifying or adding certain equipment, such as headlamps, sidemarker lights, and a catalytic converter as required by the relevant regulations. The NHTSA and EPA would review the paperwork and then approve possession of the vehicle. It was also possible for these agencies to reject the application and order the automobile destroyed or re-exported. The grey market provided an alternate method for Americans to acquire desirable vehicles, and still obtain certification. Tens of thousands of cars were imported this way each year during the 1980s.

The Lamborghini Countach was one of the first grey market vehicles, and the Range Rover and Mercedes-Benz G-Class were initially available only through the grey market. Other vehicles that entered the US in small numbers via the grey market included the CX and Renault 5 Turbo. This avenue of vehicle availability was increasingly successful, especially in cases where the US model of a vehicle was less powerful and/or less well equipped than versions available in other markets. For example, Mercedes-Benz chose to offer only the lower-output 380SEL model in 1981 to Americans, some of whom wanted the much faster 500SEL available in the rest of the world. BMW had the same issue with their 745i Turbo. The grey market was successful enough that it ate significantly into the business of Mercedes-Benz of North America and their dealers. The corporation launched a successful million-dollar congressional lobbying effort to stop private importation of vehicles not officially intended for the U.S. market. An organisation called AICA (Automotive Importers Compliance Association) was formed by importers in California, Florida, New York, Texas, and elsewhere to counter some of these actions by Mercedes lobbyists, but the Motor Vehicle Safety Compliance Act was passed in 1988, effectively ending private import of grey-market vehicles to the United States. No evidence was presented that grey-import vehicles' safety performance differed significantly from that of US models, and there have been allegations of improper lobbying, but the issue has never been raised in court.

The grey market declined from 66,900 vehicles in 1985 to 300 vehicles in 1995.[2] It is no longer possible to import a non-US vehicle into the United States as a personal import, with four exceptions, none of which permits Americans to buy recent vehicles not officially available in the United States.:thumbdown:

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[Alan L.]

Yes it does sound fishy. However if it fact the cost to certify is two million per model, considering the volume of sales I doubt that would be a big deterrent. I believe the fact is that diesels just cost a lot more to build, especially to meet u.s. emission standards. And American customers just are not willing to pay that premium. Not to mention that diesel is more expensive than gas, making the fuel cost similar to gas overall.

 

[CliffordK]

I agree,
Perhaps 40 years ago, there were important safety differences between US models and European models. I have a Grey Market Fiat from the 60's, and a US model of the same car, and the bumpers are substantially heavier, although I don't believe that it made the car substantially safer.

Today, the European models are equally "safe" as US models, although I might still be a little suspicious about a car such as the Tata Nano

There are still a few "grey market" cars. The first Smart Cars came over as grey market cars. If a car has already been certified in the USA, then it may be substantially easier to bring in closely related cars.

And, of course, there is an exception to the rule allowing one to import cars over 25 years old. So, rather than importing a nice clean, safe modern Diesel, one can always hunt down a good smoky one from the 80's with questionable safety standards.

See the World Forum for Harmonization of Vehicle Regulations, of which the USA and Canada are NOT members. My guess is that a large part of is that the EPA and DOT wish to maintain their own bureaucracy.

 

[jonnyc1999]

I've heard the argument that diesels are more expensive to make many times, but isn't an engine an engine? Is it because there are fewr diesels being produced, so the volume discount is less? I would think that this is more important as more aluminum diesel engines are manufactured. Right?

 

[CliffordK]

The Diesels, of course, have to deal with higher compression. The injection pumps would have been more complicated than the old carburettors, but perhaps that is all changing today with injected auto engines and all the electronic controls.

How much more could it add to the production cost? $500? $1000? For a "cheap" $20K car, that would mean $20K vs $21K (plus a bit more for the novelty).

As I understand it, sulfur has been a problem with adding catalytic converters to Diesel engines, but that is no longer the case. Turbocharging helps with cleaning the emissions, but particulates remain. Now with the DPF and Urea, the Diesel engines with all the smog controls should be clean enough (although the smog stuff does add to the purchase and operation costs).

I think part of the problem is that auto manufactures are very slow to adapt to consumer desires. For years, there has been a push for better HP in the USA, and better mileage elsewhere.

 

[newbury]

Perhaps you should consider the AVERAGE American consumer.
I've been driving diesels since I bought a 1979 Diesel VW Rabbit (50 mpg around town, 65 mpg on a trip).

They want FAST. Diesels have usually been "slow" on acceleration. My '88 Ford E350 accelerates like a cabin cruiser. This has changed, my '09 TDI can get up to speed fairly fast.

They want CHEAP. Diesel engines are more costly. My diesels cost 3K to 5K more than the gas variant.

They want convenience. Until about the last 5 or 10 years diesel fuel stations were sparse in the US. This is changing.

They want quiet. This is changing. My jetta is quiet.

Up until the recent recession they changed cars frequently. Diesels are for the long term. I trust used diesels like used chainsaws. You never know if some dumb bo put in straight gas.

The diesel history for the American industry (GM etc) in the passenger car is terrible because of the cheap corporate managers that modified slightly a gas engine and sold it to the public.

And most women I know don't like the smell of diesel.

It's only been about the last 10 years that gas has been above $2/gallon

Historical Gas Price Charts - GasBuddy.com

So why save energy?

 

[soulasphil]

Another aspect of the question is that refineries produce both diesel and gas. In countries like France, where a strong majority of cars are diesel, there is a vast excess of gas. We are very happy to sell it to the US. So please don't change your ways and continue enjoying cheap gas (which in my opinion also gives a more comfortable ride).

 

[coobie]

Where is Jesse Ventura?Maybe he can investigate this?

 

[ttriff]

Chevrolet Cruze well-mated to diesel engine

 

[Creamer]

There are a few reasons diesels are more popular in Europe but the two main ones are the differential in fuel pricing - gas historically has been much more expensive, approximately double but this is not true anymore, and the taxes on the cars was based on engine size. For instance a 3.0L V6 might cost you $2500/year in taxes just to own. Diesels put out more power per displaced volume and therefore it was a good way to power small cars and stay away from the taxes. have you ever wondered why there were so many 1.9L European engines.

Furthermore the former Big 3 loved the various regulations because of the cost to another company to enter the market, i.e. barrier to entry. This is why a lot of foreign companies started with small cars - easier to meet the emissions as the regulations were written.

 

[CliffordK]

I'm not sure there is that big of a difference in engine size between gas and diesel, at least in the vehicles.

VW sells about 2L gas and Diesel cars.
a 350 gas engine is about 5.7L
a 454 gas engine is a big engine, about 7.4L.
Ford Powerstroke engines are between 6 and 7.3L.

In Italy a few decades ago (not sure about today), Diesel had essentially no fuel taxes. Gasoline was taxed about 3x the value of the gas. However, the Diesels had higher annual registration taxes to make up for the difference. Anyway, the Diesels were convenient for people who drove a lot.

The bottom of the barrel was the half-liter Fiat 500, and 650cc Fiat 126, both with gasoline engines, although the new reincarnated Fiat 500 is available in Europe with a very efficient Diesel engine (about 56 mpg), unlike the more mediocre US version (27 to 40 mpg)

 

[GManBart]

I guess I missed where this has anything to do with buying/pricing/comparison of tractors????

 

[sd455dan]

The Diesels, of course, have to deal with higher compression. The injection pumps would have been more complicated than the old carburettors, but perhaps that is all changing today with injected auto engines and all the electronic controls.

How much more could it add to the production cost? $500? $1000? For a "cheap" $20K car, that would mean $20K vs $21K (plus a bit more for the novelty).

As I understand it, sulfur has been a problem with adding catalytic converters to Diesel engines, but that is no longer the case. Turbocharging helps with cleaning the emissions, but particulates remain. Now with the DPF and Urea, the Diesel engines with all the smog controls should be clean enough (although the smog stuff does add to the purchase and operation costs).

I think part of the problem is that auto manufactures are very slow to adapt to consumer desires. For years, there has been a push for better HP in the USA, and better mileage elsewhere.

AS far as cost goes -consider
your average Cummiins common rail diesel engine , just a set of new replacement injectors can run around $2000 and I believe a remanufactured engine costs around $12000 from them... But if cared for 300,000 to 500,000 miles isn't uncommon .

I believe the (diesel ) option on the Dodge trucks is an additional charge of over $6000... Diesels DO cost more at the initial purchase point...

 

[greasemonkeyok]

The Internet rumor years ago was that GM, having such a bad reputation after its fiasco with diesel cars, lobbied Congress for emissions standards high enough on diesel cars that they wouldn't have any competition from the foreign car manufacturers exporting diesel cars to the US. In other words, GM didn't want diesel cars in the US because they knew the public would be reluctant to buy from them again.

At least that was the scoop VW of America was putting out back then. VW and MB were the main companies that said, "ok, you want clean diesel, we can do clean diesel."

A latent problem with diesel cars is dealorship mechanics and service. The mechanics at the dealorships mostly see gasoline vehicles, so they sometimes make mistakes by not following VW guidelines. For example, VW dealors are notorious for putting the wrong oil (which just happens to be much cheaper) in TDI's which, of course, can void your warranty.

 

[tony83]

An engine is not just an engine. I give you a short overview from the engineering side of the automotive/heavy-duty engine industry. A modern diesel engine will cost significantly more than a comparable-sized gasoline engine (as sd455dan stated, the injectors are significantly more expensive). Many of these high-cost components deal with diesel having a much higher injection pressure than gasoline injectors). You have to consider the costs of injectors, common rail fuel system, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, as well as glow plugs, turbocharger (a couple grand there) and intercooler, just to name a partial list. That's just in parts for the engine. Today's DPF and SCR systems add a couple grand alone in emissions systems - that's one major reason (along with reliability) truck sales spiked in 2006 and plummeted in 2007 for the new emission standards. Also, don't discount the heavy investment in R&D and manufacturing - again, two different animals in naturally aspirated gasoline and turbocharged diesel, although turbocharged gasoline developers are taking experience from the turbo diesel side.

 

[Boeing]

Alot of good thought here.....
Jeep had the "cajones" to build a diesel back in '04 or so that used a Mercedes Diesel. When Chrysler separated from Mercedes they dropped the diesel. I read that they are bringing it back in Sept using an Italian diesel.

I feel that many would buy diesels if they were offered. I keep an suv or a car/truck in superb condition, inside and out, and IF the driveline would last I could easily keep it 10-15 years. This attitude COULD be the very reason why Detroit won't offer them. Can we expect Toyota to put them in the Tacoma and SUV's? then Nisson....then Hundai (however you spell that)
BTW, I paid about TWICE as much for a 550W GENERATOR just because it is a diesel and the fuel does not "spoil":thumbsup:

 

[alchemysa]

Whats the price difference for a diesel vs petrol engine in a mid size car in Europe? Here in Ausralia its about 3 grand even for something as small as a Hyundai i30. Motoring organizations advise that its just not worth the extra cost unless you do very high milages. (How many people are going to do high miles in an i30).

 

[Creamer]

You guys keep talking cost differential but what you are really talking is price differential. Back in the 80's GM and Ford had workhorse V6s (3800 and 3.0L respectively) that were cheap and good motors. They cost about $700 each. Those pushrod motors have been set aside for the overhead cam, multiple valve type engines that cost $2200 or so. Things like high pressure gas injection and other newer features have pushed that cost up to $3000. The bottom line is that there used to be a major cost differential between a high pressure injection diesel and a pushrod gas engine. but that differential has decreased dramatically. There is maybe a $1k cost differential. Note that I am talking about the variable cost to build an engine - not including all the overhead, development, etc.

The numbers that keep getting thrown around here are pricing differences. There really is not that much anymore.

 

[MHarryE]

Whats the price difference for a diesel vs petrol engine in a mid size car in Europe? Here in Ausralia its about 3 grand even for something as small as a Hyundai i30. Motoring organizations advise that its just not worth the extra cost unless you do very high milages. (How many people are going to do high miles in an i30).

Not sure how it is in Australia but there are a lot more things to consider beside purchase price. I lived in France '97 - '99. I bought a BMW 325TD. I seldom found a used gasoline on the lot. I was told resale on a gasoline BMW was nil. Back then we still had the franc - about 4 franc per liter for diesel and 5 franc for gasoline. Then came the tax. My 325TD was taxed at 7 CV or horsepower while I believe the gasoline equivalent was 18 CV. I can't remember the tax rule but the difference was many franc per year.

After returning to America I spent at least one week each month overseas, mostly Europe. That meant probably over 100 rentals, probably 90% diesel. I dreaded getting stuck with a gas rental. European stop and go traffic - gas engines really suck when you have to inch forward in traffic due to lack of low end torque. Quickly end up with clutch chatter. You Aussies, unless you live in Sydney, don't have to contend with that crap. And some of the rentals got unbelievable fuel economy. I averaged 42 miles per gallon (can't quickly remember liters/100 km) over a 3,000 km rental with 4 of us in an Opel Astra wagon. Mixture of stop and go, mountain, and high speed Autostrada with a lot over 150 km/hr.

The bad thing with European diesels is the soot problem. Every landmark undergoes almost continuous cleaning. My car was super clean for its time so I got a sticker allowing me to drive in Paris on the really bad pollution days. Most diesels at that time had to sit on those days.

 

[tony83]

Creamer,

I just wanted to clarify that what I was talking about was the cost (of production) difference, and the difference has been increasing as diesel engines require higher fuel pressures, more refined combustion control, and most costly - tons more emissions equipment. Diesels used to have nothing for emissions while for decades gasoline engines were fitted with catalysts and EGR controls. I had an '88 GMC that even had an air pump to simply dilute the exhaust gases, yet my '02 Chevy diesel came factory without even a catalytic converter, and Cummins did not even use EGR on the Chrysler 'B' until 2007.