Diesels only in EXPENSIVE Foreign cars and EXPENSIVE US TRUCKS....here's WHY

[Cobranut]

Actually, in England, the diesel is usually the base model, with the upgrade to a petrol engine costing extra.

 

[terraformer]

diesel jeeps have been available. They were a 3.0l engine. Both of my cars are diesel. Both old school without computers. Both cost about $2000. Been driving them for years.

Read any test of a new car. If it doesn't go 0x60 in 8 seconds it is considered to slow to be safe. If I am accelerating on the highway I rarely take less than a mile to get to my cruising speed. Yeah they both will do it in a quarter mile but I don't care. The average consumer won't put up them.

 

[Capricious]

When i was a kid (several decades ago) diesel fuel was about 1/2 the cost of gasoline.

Now, diesel usually costs more than gasoline. Why? decause demand for diesel is rising faster than the demand for gasoline. Remember when Ford tandem axle dumps had 534's? Now, even 1/2 ton pickups are being fitted with diesels.

And, within limits, refineries cannot really the change the quantities of how much diesel and how much gasoline they extract from a barrel of crude. So, they cannot make more diesel and less gasoline to suit the whims of the marketplace.

Diesel fuel will increasing cost more than gasoline as the demand rises even further. At some point in the future, diesel will be twice the cost of gasoline. It's a simple matter of supply and demand.

I would own a diesel if i HAD to have it for towing/hauling large loads ALL the time. For an occasional heavy load, and for everyday driving, I'll stick with gasoline.

No diesel cars for me.

 

[varmint]

I read through this thread, and I didn't see anything about the relative higher cost of diesel fuel- because, if my understanding is right, our refineries don't have the capacity to produce it much beyond the present output. But yes, modern diesels, like a friend's TDi Jetta, seem to be great cars- you can't tell you're riding in a diesel when underway, and her Jetta gets about half again the millage of a gas engined version. Other than a little extra cost up front, I can't see a downside.

 

[buck boost]

Creamer,

I just wanted to clarify that what I was talking about was the cost (of production) difference, and the difference has been increasing as diesel engines require higher fuel pressures, more refined combustion control, and most costly - tons more emissions equipment. Diesels used to have nothing for emissions while for decades gasoline engines were fitted with catalysts and EGR controls. I had an '88 GMC that even had an air pump to simply dilute the exhaust gases, yet my '02 Chevy diesel came factory without even a catalytic converter, and Cummins did not even use EGR on the Chrysler 'B' until 2007.

Doesn't the stuff in red apply to direct injection gassers as well? I'm not up to speed on DI gassers...:confused3:

 

[DarkBlack]

Ever wonder WHY the entire world (other than the US) has DIESELS in just about everything? Little cars, small pickups from TOYOTA, NISSON, SUBURU, AND FORD, GM..... med and large cars, virtually ALL pickup trucks, etc. And the kicker?.....Many of these vehicles in foreign countries carry the name of FORD, GM, etc...... I saw a beautiful Jeep 4 dr. Wrangler DIESEL in Santa Domingo a few months ago. Not avail in the U.S....WHY?
WHY?......when we all hear "END THE DEPENDANCE ON FOREIGN OIL!!!" WHY would the government want us NOT to get 30% better milage? less tax revenue? Could THAT be the answer? IS it the OIL interests that prevent this? Less fuel SOLD? Is it DETROIT who doesn't want to put out engines that might go 400,000 miles?
I fly throughout Europe and South/Central America and see almost EVERY MOTOR VEHICLE is powered by DIESEL. They have expensive fuel and this is the way that they have addressed it.
WHY...are these options not available to us? WHY...can we not get diesels in our small-mid size cars while other nations can? WHY....can we not even import them????????

Here's a clue from a "Graymarket" search....
United States
The United States continues to use a unique set of safety and emission regulations administered by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) for motor vehicles, which differ significantly from the international UN Regulations used throughout the rest of the world. Vehicle manufacturers thus face considerable expense to type-certify a vehicle for U.S. sale, at a cost estimated to be upward of USD $2 million per vehicle model. This cost particularly affects low-volume manufacturers and models, most notably the makers of high end sports cars. However, larger companies such as Alfa Romeo and Peugeot have also cited costs of 吐ederalizing their vehicle lineups as a disincentive to re-enter the U.S. market.

NHTSA and Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regulations criminalise the possession of a vehicle not meeting U.S. standards. Even Canadian-market vehicles may not meet these requirements. Exceptions exist for foreign nationals touring the U.S. in their own vehicle and for cars imported for show or display purposes.

Because of the unavailability of certain car models, demand for grey market vehicles arose in the late 1970s. Importing them into the US involved modifying or adding certain equipment, such as headlamps, sidemarker lights, and a catalytic converter as required by the relevant regulations. The NHTSA and EPA would review the paperwork and then approve possession of the vehicle. It was also possible for these agencies to reject the application and order the automobile destroyed or re-exported. The grey market provided an alternate method for Americans to acquire desirable vehicles, and still obtain certification. Tens of thousands of cars were imported this way each year during the 1980s.

The Lamborghini Countach was one of the first grey market vehicles, and the Range Rover and Mercedes-Benz G-Class were initially available only through the grey market. Other vehicles that entered the US in small numbers via the grey market included the CX and Renault 5 Turbo. This avenue of vehicle availability was increasingly successful, especially in cases where the US model of a vehicle was less powerful and/or less well equipped than versions available in other markets. For example, Mercedes-Benz chose to offer only the lower-output 380SEL model in 1981 to Americans, some of whom wanted the much faster 500SEL available in the rest of the world. BMW had the same issue with their 745i Turbo. The grey market was successful enough that it ate significantly into the business of Mercedes-Benz of North America and their dealers. The corporation launched a successful million-dollar congressional lobbying effort to stop private importation of vehicles not officially intended for the U.S. market. An organisation called AICA (Automotive Importers Compliance Association) was formed by importers in California, Florida, New York, Texas, and elsewhere to counter some of these actions by Mercedes lobbyists, but the Motor Vehicle Safety Compliance Act was passed in 1988, effectively ending private import of grey-market vehicles to the United States. No evidence was presented that grey-import vehicles' safety performance differed significantly from that of US models, and there have been allegations of improper lobbying, but the issue has never been raised in court.

The grey market declined from 66,900 vehicles in 1985 to 300 vehicles in 1995.[2] It is no longer possible to import a non-US vehicle into the United States as a personal import, with four exceptions, none of which permits Americans to buy recent vehicles not officially available in the United States.:thumbdown:

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While I generally agree with your post's intention, I read your attached 'supporting' snippet to be somewhat devoid of your gas/diesel thread idea. That snippet seems 99% geared toward grey market safety standard issues such as side markers. Did I miss the part about diesel, and diesel fuel?

 

[DarkBlack]

Diesels put out more power per displaced volume and therefore it was a good way to power small cars and stay away from the taxes. have you ever wondered why there were so many 1.9L European engines.

I disagree. While a diesel generally will make more torque for a given displacement, It usually will make less power, for the same size. The gas engine has the drawback uf needing to be revved to it's power range.

 

[Texasmark]

On what we can buy and what the rest of the world runs on, think back about how long it took for us to adopt the radial tire that had been rolling around the rest of the world for eons. I doubt it takes a rocket scientist to figure out the answer.

Mark

 

[CobyRupert]

I disagree. While a diesel generally will make more torque for a given displacement, It usually will make less power, for the same size. The gas engine has the drawback uf needing to be revved to it's power range.

Enzo Ferrari was once quoted as saying "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races".

An earlier poster noted how Americans, pre last recession, typically don't buy their cars for the long run, the 200,000+ miles that a diesel can easily achieve (provided that, like here in the northeast, the government doesn't take my tax money and use it to spread car body dissolver/rust enhancer on the roads for 6 months a year, thereby making my car fall apart before it can achieve that mileage :grumpy.

I think the "diesels are great for the long haul/high mileage" argument was true (example: those 1980's VW rabbits still on the road) prior to "clean diesel" & "doing more with less displacement" that use turbos to achieve their results. Turbos are the very, very weak link in the "superior diesel longevity" argument.

 

[Capricious]

"..I think the "diesels are great for the long haul/high mileage" argument was true..."


I agree. In the days of the non-turbo 6-71, a diesel would last much longer than a gasoline engine.

But gasoline engines are better than they used to be (remember in the '60s when a valve grind @ 25,000 miles was the norm?) while diesel engines are more highly stressed in an effort to squeeze more power out of them. I don't think there is that much diffference in life expectancy now. And repair/replacement cost for diesels are higher than for gasoline.

I would not want a turbo "anything," gas or diesel. ESPECIALLY a used turbo where I would have no idea how the previous owner treated it. I used to work around very large diesels which were fitted with "soak back" pumps: electric pumps that circulated oil through the turbo after engine shutdown, for cooling purposes (the soak back pump was also used for pre-lubing before starting.) If the soak back pump failed on engine shutdown, you had to immediately re-start the engine and alow it to idle for an extended period of time, or else you would damage a $35,000 (plus core, not including labor) turbo.

Don't want no turbos. Give me cubic inches and/or a little less power.

 

[jaotguy]

diesels have torque from low speeds right up to red line ..... with or without a turbo....

diesel can burn as clean as a gasser ( sometimes even cleaner )

diesels with turbos can be quicker than the gasser version .

diesels are now quieter than most gassers (cabin noise )
DI has almost eliminated the clack ...

most diesels start well at low temps ...

I've had both versions of the same car (gas and diesel) go over 650,000 Km without major engine problems, so we can skip that argument ...

outside of the smell when filling up, you can't tell'em apart.


BUT, diesels put out more useful power for less fuel.. and some can still run on $%^&* fuel , even vegetable oil off the shelf in a pinch ...... and a lot of 3rd world countries use waste cooking oil, palm oil, coconut oil ... scooters, outboard engines , etc .... no oil refineries needed ....



CARB regulated the particulates ( and in smog filled cities , something had to be done ) .... and rather than make 2 models , the car makers just follow the more stringent CA version .... but as you've seen almost every state has dropped the "E-test" ....

big oil , car makers, and some fanatical environmentalists push for no diesels ...

big oil ... so they can control the market
car makers ... so they don't have to offer more engines and models to compete with the Euro car makers.
environmentalists ... go electric ... no pollution ... ( except most states burn coal to produce the electricity ... cleaner?)

 

[DarkBlack]

At the mercy of another cliff fall debate, I can concede: In general use, diesels can put out more 'useful' power ( that being torque at low commonly used rpms).
You just can't proclaim that they make more power, size for size, or pound for pound.

 

[varmint]

Don't think anyone has mentioned here something sort of related... Audi has cleaned up at the 24 hours of LeMans many years running, using their Tdi turbo diesel cars.

 

[Hiltz]

Where is Jesse Ventura?Maybe he can investigate this?

Ha, good one

 

[SPYDERLK]

Enzo Ferrari was once quoted as saying "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races".

Too simplistic; therefore wrong. The two are not separable. -- Horsepower and tractability wins races. ie greatest area under the hp curve.
larry

 

[jaotguy]

I can concede: In general use, diesels can put out more 'useful' power ( that being torque at low commonly used rpms).
You just can't proclaim that they make more power, size for size, or pound for pound.

the statement was "more useful power on less fuel"

never stated "they make more power, size for size, or pound for pound" .... they are physically bigger and heavier due to construction , only the "displacement" is smaller :thumbsup:


HP wise they are "down on power" ... torque wise they are higher ( allows wider ranges for round town and highway cruise gearing )... easier pull away from stop signs without bogging /stalling .... smooth brisk acceleration ( not snap your neck when you hit the power band )....

and the displacement is always 1 or 2 CC less than the number specified 1598 for 1600 ... 1898 for 1900 ... just to make sure the engines are under the next higher bracket for being punished for having fun ...

but we must admit , both engines are a vast improvement over the engines of decades ago ... both are extremely durable, low maintenance beasts ....

my only beef is the title (expensive cars and trucks) golfs / jettas are not that much more expensive than a NA car

and Ram diesel trucks are right up there with the Cummings engine ..... ... great motors ...

 

[MHarryE]

Don't think anyone has mentioned here something sort of related... Audi has cleaned up at the 24 hours of LeMans many years running, using their Tdi turbo diesel cars.

Audi/Volkswagen make some fine diesels. Several years ago I happened to get an Audi A6 All Road. All Road means multi position suspension (actually 7 heights). One Sunday morning in light traffic on an almost deserted Autobahn I had the opportunity to cruise at the speed limiter speed - 255 km/hr or 158 mph. It was the most stable car I have ever driven - 3.0 after cooled turbo diesel. That day I did not get my normal diesel mileage but still was in the range of 7 liters/100 km. I am hard pressed to think of an European diesel that is not turbocharged. The general rule when I lived in Europe was Diesel engine car life expectancy 2.5 times that of a gasoline engine car.

 

[Capricious]

Question: Will you be willing to pay a premium for an ordinary sedan with a diesel, rather than a gasoline engine, when diesel fuel costs twice as much per gallon as gasoline?

 

[JimRB]

I guess the retort question is where in the US today is diesel twice the price of gasoline and when is it predicted to be twice the price?

Where I buy diesel it is priced between mid-grade and premium gasoline. It used to be the least expensive fuel 10 years ago.

I also read that a fair amount of US made diesel is shipped overseas.

I thought I read diesel fuel has a higher tax per gallon than gasoline.

 

[Capricious]

I remember when diesel was half the price of gasoline, all single-axle dumps & most tandem-axle dumps were gasoline, and the only pick up trucks with diesels were swaps. Diesels in cars? Maybe the odd Mercedes and that was about it.

Now diesel engies are available in pretty much every type of vehicle, and the market for refined petro. shows it. The demand for diesel has been growing much faster than the demand for gasoline. Refineries produce so many gals of diesel and so many gals. of gasoline from a barrel of crude, and cannot vary that production by much. Cat. cracking has helped but there simply isn't that much residual left from crude any more.

Bottom line: the price of diesel will continue to rise in relation to the price of gasoline. The time will come when #2 @ the pump is twice the price of gasoline. When? I'm not saying. But considering the (sometimes unsubstantiated) claims of the longevity of diesels posted here by some, it is a matter not to be taken lightly.

Like I said before, If I had heavy loads to haul all the time, I would get a diesel. If I occasionally had to haul a heavy load, gasoline. And in any car, gasoline. I keep my vehicles a long time. I expect to see very high diesel prices during the lifetime of the next vehicle I buy.

I also would not buy a hybrid- too complicated for the little benefit.