Had my first regen today

[nspec]

Speaking strictly towards the issues of power and fuel economy, tier 4 is supposed to be better than tier 3. With tier 4, the engine is left alone to do what it does best and the exhaust is treated. Lots of tier 3 engines suffered on the power and fuel economy side because timing and other engine workings were adjusted to meet the epa standards. The manufacturers hadn't put the aftertreatment systems on yet. Now the engines can be let loose to make the best mix of power vs fuel usage and only the exhaust has to be treated. (Note - yes, I realize some manufacturers still use egr, and I'm not a fan. But, that is a choice. Other manufacturers have made a decision not to go down that road and users of the equipment are quite pleased with the upgrade from tier 3 to tier 4.)

 

[ovrszd]

I read the whole thing, but sorry to say, I do not know what you are talking about ..."regeneration"...:confused2:

Read CrazyAl's post number 7. It is a basic description of what happens.

I've been running a Tier IV JD Grader for two years now. It Regens about every 50 hours. After the first couple times I've learned how to operate the machine in a manner that there is no obvious power loss. It also takes about 15 minutes to complete.

When grading I normally run half throttle, around 1500 rpms with minimal load because I'm just doing light road maintenance work. When the Regen light comes on, if I stay at half throttle the engine will not build enough heat in the Particulate Filter (Huge Muffler looking thing) to burn off the soot. If that's the case the computer takes over and adjusts engine tuning to create the heat it needs. If this happens there's a noticeable power loss, I'd say 15%. Makes you instantly shift down a gear to do the same work.

So I've learned when the Regen light comes on, shift down a gear and go to full throttle thru the process. This generates enough heat to do the job without detuning the engine and there's minimal if any notice in power.

If I'm doing heavy work light cutting dirt or pushing snow and it goes into Regen, I barely notice it because again, I'm creating enough heat to complete the process without detuning.

For the OP sounds like if he's running a PTO device he has a high enough rpm to generate the heat necessary without any computer interruption.

I was told by my JD salesman that any construction equipment manufactured after 1 July 2013 will be the next step which requires Urea injection. The initial Interim Tier IV system added $20K to the cost of a machine. This next step adds another $10K.

I'm not sure what costs were added to tractor or what the next step will cost.

 

[ovrszd]

Speaking strictly towards the issues of power and fuel economy, tier 4 is supposed to be better than tier 3. With tier 4, the engine is left alone to do what it does best and the exhaust is treated. Lots of tier 3 engines suffered on the power and fuel economy side because timing and other engine workings were adjusted to meet the epa standards. The manufacturers hadn't put the aftertreatment systems on yet. Now the engines can be let loose to make the best mix of power vs fuel usage and only the exhaust has to be treated. (Note - yes, I realize some manufacturers still use egr, and I'm not a fan. But, that is a choice. Other manufacturers have made a decision not to go down that road and users of the equipment are quite pleased with the upgrade from tier 3 to tier 4.)

I will say that the JD Grader changes when introducing Tier IV also changed the entire engine. They increased the engine size to a 9.0L. It has more torque and HP than it's Tier III predecessor. As for fuel economy, I never did any exact checks such as the OP did on his tractor. But I believe the Tier IV setup to be more fuel efficient with greater useable power. That's why I can run it at half throttle to do most work. We just don't want to own it when it needs a new Particulate Filter, costs around $5K and has to be installed by a dealer.

 

[mkane09]

Where is the DPF located on your tractor? I have a 2012 Ford F350 and the owners manual warns not to park or operate the truck in any area that may catch fire during a regeneration. Well, if I'm bushhogging a 4' tall field of grass with my tier 4 tractor, do I need to move out of the field if it indicates a regeneration? I'm waiting for the first uncontrolled brush fire (say, Colorado) with associated lawsuit against the EPA. Clean air is one thing, but we need to be mindful of WHERE tractors are used. So, where is the DPF on your tractor?

mkane09

 

[MHarryE]

The DPF on a Kubota is at the back top of the engine. You can recognize it by the bulge on the hood from the outside, and the large stainless steel muffler once you open the hood. On a L6060 it partially takes the space used by the fuel tank so the tank is relocated low like the big boys. It doesn't say how hot the exhaust is but it does warn not to regen in a garage or machine shed. My computer display has a DPF temperature display so I intend to watch that when I have my first regen to see how it compares to plain full power operation, but I don't expect it to be a lot different because the book says when running at high power most of the particulates are burned so regens are further apart.

I retired from Caterpillar just as my product line was beginning the engineering on Tier 4 interim installations. For my part, validation testing, Tier 3 was not a pleasant experience but in meeting with my old group every couple months, they tell me Tier 4 interim has gone much better. On the machines in my group the engines were running at a very high power factor during all operation so as long as they weren't left sitting at low idle, they seldom regenerated. Life expectance of the DPF was lifetime of the machine and from testing, they had no reason to doubt our engine supplier (our own company) claims. Also, they switched from a 6.6 liter 6 cylinder engine to a 4.4 liter 4 cylinder engine with the same power ratings (157 HP and 174.75 HP) so the cost came in at about a wash - fewer cylinders vs. exhaust treatment.

As for starting fires, old diesels puked out hot soot and have been starting fires for ever since engines were developed. In the DPF the soot particles are supposed to be burned and no hot carbon particles are supposed to be ejected. In theory safer, but there are the warnings about the system getting very hot during the burn. So what if leaves and chaff collect around the system when it regenerates? That could be a problem. Back in the old days my dad was working in the field with our Farmall H which had been used for loading manure during the winter. When loading manure you always get straw falling off the raised loader and some of that landed on the manifold area. Doing heavy work in the spring without cleaning this straw - the manifold heated up, lit off the straw, and this is right in front of the fuel tank. Farmall H's, especially the old ones, did not have a very good gas cap so there was plenty of leakage from sloshing (International finally released a raised cap to stop the fires). Burning straw, gasoline, and pretty soon dad was driving a torch. Happened then, happened as years went along (I have a collection of combine fire pictures), and will happen in the future. Blaming on Tier 4 is a stretch.

 

[johnnyvol]

Where is the DPF located on your tractor? I have a 2012 Ford F350 and the owners manual warns not to park or operate the truck in any area that may catch fire during a regeneration. Well, if I'm bushhogging a 4' tall field of grass with my tier 4 tractor, do I need to move out of the field if it indicates a regeneration? I'm waiting for the first uncontrolled brush fire (say, Colorado) with associated lawsuit against the EPA. Clean air is one thing, but we need to be mindful of WHERE tractors are used. So, where is the DPF on your tractor?

mkane09

That's pretty much what I was doing during the regen, cutting a field of about two feet tall grass.

 

[johnnyvol]

The horror story is not the regen process. It's repairing or replacing the regen components. I don't have a clue what it costs for the tractor parts, but a DPF (like a catalytic converter) for a Mack truck is $6000 to replace.

I will say that the JD Grader changes when introducing Tier IV also changed the entire engine. They increased the engine size to a 9.0L. It has more torque and HP than it's Tier III predecessor. As for fuel economy, I never did any exact checks such as the OP did on his tractor. But I believe the Tier IV setup to be more fuel efficient with greater useable power. That's why I can run it at half throttle to do most work. We just don't want to own it when it needs a new Particulate Filter, costs around $5K and has to be installed by a dealer.

Sounds like replacement will be pretty expensive if needed. Anything can break, but at least Kubota thinks (or hopes?) the DPF will last a while. Maintenance interval is to clean the filter every 3000 hours.

 

[ovrszd]

Someone with more technical knowledge than I correct me if I'm wrong. In regards to tractors. I think the fire warnings are because of the potential of hot sparks escaping out the exhaust. The system will get hotter than normal when processing but not hot enough to start a field on fire. If so it would burn the tractor up first. It's mostly the exhaust that the warnings are concerned with. I personally don't think it's that big of deal.

In regards to trucks. I think the fire warnings might be more directed toward the heat of the DPF during Regen because of it's location under the vehicle where it might ignite dry, tall, standing grass. But then anyone who parks their truck in dry, tall, standing grass with it running is asking for trouble.

 

[94BULLITT]

Sounds like replacement will be pretty expensive if needed. Anything can break, but at least Kubota thinks (or hopes?) the DPF will last a while. Maintenance interval is to clean the filter every 3000 hours.

I would delete it if it needed replacing.

 

[MHarryE]

I started out at 57% today and ended at 83% after 7.9 hours chopping hay. It did drop from 60% to 58% during the first chopper box I filled but that was the only time it dropped. The percentage never increased when I had good hay to chop and was running from 70% to 95% on the power meter. My increases came during idle periods waiting for empty wagons or when hauling the wagons out of the field so it does look like the book is right that if you run it hard the heat is enough to get rid of the soot. That is totally opposite of my brother-in-law with his old 1486 International that I can keep track of even when he is over a hill in the field we were chopping by the stream of black smoke. His tractor is rated at 145 PTO HP, my M135GX is rated at 110 PTO Hp, yet I out chop him by a 4 to 3 margin. I don't know if his tractor is that down on power due to old age. Choppers are same model and condition. It has been interesting to see how this tractor will do against his. Hope the rain holds off so I can see how my first regen goes tomorrow.