Soil prep for laying down a good lawn

[jim_wilson]

I personally don't think clay soil is an issue with grass as I've never had an issue getting stuff to grow in it as long as it isn't compacted.
I would recommend that you add lime when you are doing the prep - any soil in the NE is likely acidic as we are downwind of all the major polluters. It is also easier to incorporate powdered lime, vice pelletized, at that stage which would save some $$.
I live a bit north of you (NB, Canada). Early Sept is normally the best time to start a lawn up here as you can count on some rain/August is normally fairly dry.

good luck

Everything seems to grow just fine in this stuff - I guess my question is more: what is *best* ? The weeds and the trees and everything else grow just find around here - so does the grass. I'm asking because this is sort of a one shot deal for me - I'd like to prep it as best as I can the first time out and be done with it and not have to till it all under sometime down the road if it doesn't grow in nicely. The compaction issue is another thing that makes me think the topsoil has a high clay content. Granted - I've done a LOT of driving over it with tractors - but it does compact down nice and hard. I'll likely be mowing it with my B3200 once it grows in - so if there's a way to avoid the soil compaction issue over time - by tilling in peat moss or some such thing - then that is something I'd like to do when I'm prepping the soil.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Thats why I tilled down to 12" - to loosen the soil good. It allows for a really good, easy start for the roots, and, allows much better drainage of the water you will be putting on trying to get the seeds to germinate. If you do not till/loosen the soil, then you will be forced to water less to prevent puddling and that will kill off a lot of seed, or, you will drown them. This is the number one mistake when seeding a new lawn - too little watering allowing the seeds to dry out, or, too much puddling which drowns them. Till good and deep. 2" is too shallow due to the compacted clay. You can add lime if you wish, but the compost with manure will take care of the fertilizing.

 

[jim_wilson]

Thats why I tilled down to 12" - to loosen the soil good. It allows for a really good, easy start for the roots, and, allows much better drainage of the water you will be putting on trying to get the seeds to germinate. If you do not till/loosen the soil, then you will be forced to water less to prevent puddling and that will kill off a lot of seed, or, you will drown them. This is the number one mistake when seeding a new lawn - too little watering allowing the seeds to dry out, or, too much puddling which drowns them. Till good and deep. 2" is too shallow due to the compacted clay. You can add lime if you wish, but the compost with manure will take care of the fertilizing.

That was one of the problems I had when I put down that small patch a couple of years ago - if I watered what I thought was sufficient - it just created puddles on the surface - I ended up doing a lot of the watering with a hose by just standing there so I could regulate how much water was going down and not end up with puddles on the surface.

I remember reading before somewhere that mediating topsoil that is heavy with clay by tilling in sand can help with that - but I'm glad you mentioned the peat moss thing - because that was one of the things I was wondering - whether tilling in a bunch of peat moss and manure might not give the soil a good fertilzer to get the seeds started and break up the clay and help it retain water - by tilling in the peat moss.

I thought acidic soils were typically due to things like pine needles and so forth. What sort of evidence would I see that I have acidic soil? I can add the lime - and I suppose I could get the soil tested - I've just seen no evidence that the soil is obviously acidic and affecting the growth of anything.

 

[bcjmmac]

Couple of websites - second was for quote only. I grew up on a farm - applying lime every time we broke soil has become second nature to me. A soil test would give an exact amount, but I normally wing it as it is hard to overdo lime + you don't need to be exact for a lawn as the grass can take a range of Ph. Bare spots, crab grass & plantain are general indicators. Peat moss is also acidic so the lime will buffer it (or you could add wood ashes if you have lots).

Signs That Lawn Is Acidic | eHow

The University of Maine - Cooperative Extension Publications - Bulletin #2077, Growing Potatoes in the Home Garden
The measure of soil acidity is the pH. Soils with pH levels at 7.0 are considered 渡eutral. Soil with a pH level higher than 7.0 is considered alkaline. Soil with a pH lower than 7.0 is considered acid. Maine has many acid soils.

 

[Fossil Farm]

The pH of your soil depends on the parent material it was formed from. This could be from a glacier, river sediments, bedrock, etc. That is why one of your first steps needs to be a soil test. In eastern Ohio, most of the soils were formed from the glacier and are acidic. In northwest Ohio, most of the soils were formed from the old Lake Erie "Black Swamp" and they are on the alkaline side (in many cases). So a soil test tells a lot.

What you are describing as "topsoil" is really not. Sounds like most of the original topsoil has eroded or was stripped a long time ago. True topsoil has enough organic matter that it will not form a ball like you describe. Sounds like you are starting with the first layer of subsoil. So as much organic material (compost, manure, etc.) will help it hold nutrients and water for your grasses. It can get expensive, so just add what you can afford. If you need lime, lime well before adding fertilizer. Depending on what lime you use, it can react with the fertilizer and most of your nitrogen in the fertilizer will volatize into the air.

Early autumn is usually the best time to plant grasses. Around here, September is normally the best month. Contact your extension office or local garden center to find out for your area. The type of seed you use depends on if the site is sunny or shady. Many of the turf fescues grow well and hold up to traffic. In shade, creeping red fescues grow better. A light covering of straw helps to hold in the moisture. You should be able to see the ground. Most people put on straw so thick you cannot see through it and it can kill the seed or start mold growth in a wet fall. Again, the extension office or a local garden center can give you better advice for your area. Good luck !!!

 

[Carl_NH]

Hi Jim,

Live just north of you and have glacial till with about 3-4" topsoil and then 3-4' of clay and rock subsoil - and have mixed in sandy loam and it really helps the grass root better vs the clay type soil. It sounds like you have a better soil structure but not so good drainage, some clay, and compaction.

Take small soil samples at 6-10 places and put them all in the same bag and take it to a L&G place like Agway - they can do testing for PH and other tests too.

Get a rough grade where you want it then add an 1" or 2" of sand and rototill in, then get composted loam (Seacoast Farms - Fremont NH is one option) and spread that a few inches on top and seed and fertilize. August is a good month to prepare, then mid September is the best month to seed and you will have a decent lawn before fall.

Good luck and post some pics of your project area!

Carl

 

[jim_wilson]

Hi Jim,

Live just north of you and have glacial till with about 3-4" topsoil and then 3-4' of clay and rock subsoil - and have mixed in sandy loam and it really helps the grass root better vs the clay type soil. It sounds like you have a better soil structure but not so good drainage, some clay, and compaction.

Take small soil samples at 6-10 places and put them all in the same bag and take it to a L&G place like Agway - they can do testing for PH and other tests too.

Get a rough grade where you want it then add an 1" or 2" of sand and rototill in, then get composted loam (Seacoast Farms - Fremont NH is one option) and spread that a few inches on top and seed and fertilize. August is a good month to prepare, then mid September is the best month to seed and you will have a decent lawn before fall.

Good luck and post some pics of your project area!

Carl

Sounds like my soil structure is similar to yours - just deeper. I've got anwhere from about 8 inches of topsoil to a good foot and a half. Underneath that is at least a foot , sometimes more - of clayish,topsoilish / rocky subsoil - and then below that is the glacial till. I'm looking to put in a retaining wall in another section of my property and it was recommended to get an engineer signoff on the wall structure. He was interested in what the soil structure was - so I took some pics. This is on another corner of the property - where I had piled all the diggings from a barn I put in a few years back (still working on that one too) - but the pics at least give some idea of the soil structure.

I dug a hole down to see how far I had to go to get to glacial till - what you see is a bit deceptive here because I had piled the diggings on top of the original topsoil - so there is some soil depth added on top of what the original natural grade is - but it's not that much, 6in to a foot at most where this test hole was dug

Here's another view where I put a survey stick down into the hole to give an idea of the depth I have to go down to get to glacial till. I've dug a few inches into the till in this pic - so the four feet is made up of a few inches into the till, probably a good foot or so of subsoil (it's the rusty colored brown soil) - a good foot or more of topsoil (full of roots I had just dug a rather large stump out from this area) - and then maybe 6 inches to a foot of soil I had piled on top of the topsoil from digging out the barn foundation a few years back.

Here's the corner where I'm working on prepping to put in the lawn. The lot slopes - and I have a large pile of dirt I need to do something with - as well as a lot of topsoil I carefully stripped off when I put in my barn and a driveway a few years back. So basically what is happening here - is that I've stripped off the topsoil - I'm going to put in a retaining wall right along the property line - then I'm going to bring the grade up using the soil I dug out from the barn foundation excavation - and then pile topsoil back on top of that. Sounds like a lot of work but the way I figured it was if I leave the original topsoil and just pile dirt on top of that : I'll end up with glacial till / subsoil / deep layer of topsoil / probably at least a foot of dug up fill on top of that / then another layer of topsoil - probably at least a foot thick. I'd end up having to truck in topsoil at some point in time. I've carefully saved the topsoil in areas I've excavated because there are other areas on my lot where I need to build it up - like the front yard - where the grass grows lousy and I know a good part of the reason is because the topsoil layer is like 4 inches thick - and there's a layer of sand underneath that as fill the contractor put in many years ago when the house was built.

So what you see in this pic is where I've stripped off the topsoil layer to get down to the subsoil. The pic is somewhat deceptive because this entire hole was flooded pretty much right up to the top edge a couple of days ago from the big thunderstorms that came thru here. That dissolved some of the small piles of topsoil I hadn't cleared out yet - and left a layer of topsoil mud across the whole excavation - the subsoil is just an inch or two below that layer of mud. The big pile right next to excavation is all the topsoil I've stripped off from other areas of the lot.

I'm starting with this area because I need to build the retaining wall - and then fill in and bring up to grade behind it.

Here's a closer in view to give some idea of how deep the topsoil is:

Thanks for the Agway tip - I was wondering where I could get soil samples tested.

What I'm looking to do - is keep the topsoil depth nice and deep as much as possible. But get better drainage on it. I'd like to have a nice lawn - but I'm not one of those guys who likes spending every Saturday mowing grass. So I've sort of decided on the Pearl's Premium seed mix - because I've put it down in a couple of places on my lot when I had bare spots - and the stuff is relatively low maintainence. It puts down deep roots - and doesn't grow really fast. The part of the lot I have the pictures showing above - has always been "wet" whenever we get damp weather. So I'm bringing up the grade and hopefully mediating the top soil to make it better for the lawn growth and to improve drainage. In the back of my mind I also want to keep the topsoil depth deep - on the premise that I could potentially turn the backyard into a nice garden if I had to or wanted to.

From the suggestions in this thread it sounds like I should get the topsoil down - then add some sand, peat moss, compost or manure - and till the whole thing in. I do have plans to get a tiller - wanted one for a while and this is my excuse.

Whether I can get this work done by the fall when the best seeding time is - is another question. Part of my problem here is that my lot is like a project car - there's pieces of it spread all over the place and I'm running out of space. That big pile of topsoil you see - has to move before I can finish bringing that part of the lot up to grade - in order to move the topsoil pile - I've got to put it somewhere - and I don't have much space to put it in. So I'm dealing with moving something here to free up space - and then moving something else over there - etc.

The rain this season hasn't been helping - we've been getting a lot. It floods this area out and I have to keep pumping it out and then waiting for things to dry out before I can make progress.

Here's another pic of that same area where I showed the soil depth measurement - taken this morning - we haven't gotten any rain in a good couple of days - and it's still flooded.

Here's the hole I dug to measure out the soil depth:

 

[Carl_NH]

I would love to have 1/8 that amount of topsoil! 2-3" then its rock (many boulders too) and tannish till like you have.

From the looks of things, you must be near the river - Merrimac? in a slight valley? The reason I mention this is on out place, the black gray clay type soil is in an area of poor draining soils.

Have you thought about having a dozer in for a day or two and create several large piles then do your walls etc, then back fill and then add sand?

I agree you need drainage and by the looks of things a quite a lot of stone too - do you have an area to drain towards or into? maybe a network of pipes and a layer of 2-3" stone and sand then put down the topsoil, then till in the sand.

By the look of your soil you don't need compost, just some sand mixed in.

Carl

 

[Midniteoyl]

By the look of your soil you don't need compost, just some sand mixed in.

Carl

Agree... you're main concern is gonna be drainage.. When you said 'clay' I was thinking the clay I had.. Adobe type clay. It cracks when dry Needed a lot of peat moss and compost.

 

[jim_wilson]

I would love to have 1/8 that amount of topsoil! 2-3" then its rock (many boulders too) and tannish till like you have.

From the looks of things, you must be near the river - Merrimac? in a slight valley? The reason I mention this is on out place, the black gray clay type soil is in an area of poor draining soils.

Have you thought about having a dozer in for a day or two and create several large piles then do your walls etc, then back fill and then add sand?

I agree you need drainage and by the looks of things a quite a lot of stone too - do you have an area to drain towards or into? maybe a network of pipes and a layer of 2-3" stone and sand then put down the topsoil, then till in the sand.

By the look of your soil you don't need compost, just some sand mixed in.

Carl

Actually - if anything I'm very near the peak of what is a very gradual hill. The Merrimac is a few miles from me. My understanding is that this whole area used to be a farm - in fact the remains of the old farm fence are right along my rear property line (must have been electrified because I've found some of the porcelain insulators). I have noticed that the soil in that area I showed in the pic that is filled with water - when it gets wet - actually still has sort of stink of manure, to my nose anyway. And my house has been here since the mid 1950's , so it's been at least that long since the place was a farm.

I actually think what happens here is that the water does not percolate down thru the lower level of glacial till - so when we get wet weather it saturates the soil - and basically the only way it "drains" is when the soil in the entire area "drains" out to whatever low lying area there might be. I know there are a couple of streams close to my house - so I think the water caught in the soil slowly percolates out and runs off. If we have had a dry spell for even a few weeks - then I can dig a good six feet down and it's dry. If we get wet weather - like we've been having recently - the water table is basically at ground level on the lower part of my lot where the grade evens out a little. That's why the hole I showed in those pics is filled right up to the top.

If I pump the water out of that hole - and we get a few 90 + degree days - the combination of water runoff and the heat baking all the moisture out of the ground will dry that all right out.

I've thought about the dozer thing - but I don't think it really gains me much, because I've just got no place to pile anything. I've actually got a box blade on order from Cammond (Back to Photo Gallery) - which should hopefully be here in a week or two , so hopefully that will help me out some.

My main question was what if anything I should do to prep the soil. It sounds like I just need to maybe till in some sand and possibly some peat and it should all be good.

What do you think would be the benefit of a layer of 2-3" stone?

I remember reading somewhere that potato farmers actually till small stone back into the ground to help the soil drain better and also to retain moisture and heat in the soil. Not sure if that is something that applies to a lawn though.