DK-40: FEL~ Regen, "fast dump" not working properly

[Coyote machine]

Noticed since I installed a trigger type joystick handle to replace the knob that came with the tractor, that when I put my FEL stick to farthest right position, (which is called "Regen") which means, 'fast dump' that the FEL installed grapple running off my diverter valve, (controlled by the joystick trigger, to open or close), sometimes does NOT do what it should and acts 'confused' as to what it should be doing. When it acts up it tries to pull the grapple back INSTEAD of fast dumping, and when it works 'correctly' it does move to dump, but not fast at all. If anything, it tries to dump slower than usual.
Now, before I installed the new joystick type handle with built in trigger switch I was using a momentary switch mounted on the joystick shaft. It was awkward to use to open or close the grapple while also trying to raise or lower it, or my snowplow. To tell the truth, I'm not sure before adding the joystick handle/trigger switch that I had ever tried to use the Regen/fast dump section of the FEL valve- because I'm not sure I was even aware it existed until the joystick handle was installed and because it's higher it is easier to get the lever/handle farther to the right, and by doing so actuate the Regen/fast dump portion of the FEL valve body.
I have checked the HST fluid level and it is fine.
I wonder if the Regen portion of the valve could have been or is now defective and I'm just becoming aware of it as I am now aware of the function, and have started, inadvertently using it.
What I'm actually trying to do is close the grapple jaws which would be accomplished correctly by moving the joystick to the right, but NOT so far as to go into Regen, while pulling the trigger to activate the diverter valve to close the grapple jaws.
It is possible I'm doing something wrong in my movements with the stick, but until I found the Regen and kept 'hitting' it by 'accidentally' going too far right with the new joystick, the grapple open/ close, and dump at regular speed was working normally, at normal speed.

Sorry for long post, just trying to give as much detail as possible.:confused3:
TIA for any insight.

CM

 

[kennyd]

Sounds normal to me, here is why:
Since the regen function pressurizes both side of the cylinder, and since there is very little weight on the grapple arms to help close it it will get "stuck" or operate backwards just as you described. The same can happen on a snowblower chute rotation cylinder. Also, since both lines are pressurized, you can't operate a snowplow with two SA cylinders since both cylinders will try to push open.

Here is another great description of how regen works (its an older post so the format is a little messed up): http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/9403-3-position-valve-vs-4-a.html

So, in reading your post a couple more times, it seems your real issue is NOT moving the joystick so for to the right to enter the regen part, I know on my machine there is a mechanical lockout that can be activated to limit the travel. Is the joystick on your machine cable operated? Perhaps it needs to be adjusted and/or lubricated?

 

[Coyote machine]

Sounds normal to me, here is why:
Since the regen function pressurizes both side of the cylinder, and since there is very little weight on the grapple arms to help close it it will get "stuck" or operate backwards just as you described. The same can happen on a snowblower chute rotation cylinder. Also, since both lines are pressurized, you can't operate a snowplow with two SA cylinders since both cylinders will try to push open.

Here is another great description of how regen works (its an older post so the format is a little messed up): http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/9403-3-position-valve-vs-4-a.html

So, in reading your post a couple more times, it seems your real issue is NOT moving the joystick so for to the right to enter the regen part, I know on my machine there is a mechanical lockout that can be activated to limit the travel. Is the joystick on your machine cable operated? Perhaps it needs to be adjusted and/or lubricated?

kennyd,
Thanks for your response. So, if I understand correctly there may be no actual 'problem' except for possible operator error?
Questions I have about what is happening: Am I, or can I harm the valve, (FEL), or diverter, by making the too far to the right, (into regen) move; when I'm actually looking to dump logs with the grapple WHILE pulling the joystick trigger, seeking to OPEN the jaws at the same time, so the load will dump?
Why does the dump move slowly when it's supposed to be fast dump; is it because I'm trying to open the grapple jaws while in regen INSTEAD of just regular dump position. Does the 'recovery time' lapse as a result of being in the wrong position, (regen) when I should be in normal dump? It seems like everything goes into slow motion when I screw up and end up in regen when I wanted to just dump logs while/after opening the jaws. Am I introducing air into the cylinders like it mentioned in your link?
If I were to go to just fast dump position with the grapple jaws already open would I accomplish fast dump/regen?
Thanks again for your help.
I don't know yet enough about the FEL valve; I do NOT know of any lockout for regen position, I do know one can lock any action by the FEL valve to prevent the loader from moving at all. I believe it is cable controlled. What would adjustment likely render? What I'm asking is what would I want to adjust it to from how it is now?
In rereading your post I see you asked about the joystick, which is a momentary trigger normally open, close on contact switch, (operator activated), which if pulled when joystick/FEL lever is swung left will close the grapple jaw. When swung right and trigger pulled should open the jaws - so long as stick isn't pushed into regen during this motion,(your example of too far).
Should regen function better with a loader full of John Deere parts, for instance?

 

[J_J]

Coyote machine,

Are you selecting the grapple first when using the joystick.

If you do, the grapple will be in fast grapple when you go into regen.

If you don't go into regen, the grapple should act normally.

You might try changing out the momentary switch to a SPST switch.

CURL-GRAPPLE default is curl.

Again, select the grapple first before working the joystick.

If you want fast dump on the bucket, flip the switch to off/default.

 

[kennyd]

kennyd,
Thanks for your response. So, if I understand correctly there may be no actual 'problem' except for possible operator error?
-Your welcome. I am just suggesting the the movements you described the grapple doing are typicle if the valve is placed in the regen position, both lines pressurized.

Questions I have about what is happening: Am I, or can I harm the valve, (FEL), or diverter, by making the too far to the right, (into regen) move; when I'm actually looking to dump logs with the grapple WHILE pulling the joystick trigger, seeking to OPEN the jaws at the same time, so the load will dump?
-I don't believe you will harm the valve or diverter at all.

Why does the dump move slowly when it's supposed to be fast dump; is it because I'm trying to open the grapple jaws while in regen INSTEAD of just regular dump position.
-It moves slowly becasue both lines are pressurized, but since there is more fluid volume in one side of the cylinder it "overcomes" the other side and the piston extends (grapple closes). In regular FEL operation the weight of the bucket (and the materials in it) aid in this. I think thats pretty well described in the first post of the link I posted as well.

Does the 'recovery time' lapse as a result of being in the wrong position, (regen) when I should be in normal dump?
-Not quite sure what that means?

It seems like everything goes into slow motion when I screw up and end up in regen when I wanted to just dump logs while/after opening the jaws. Am I introducing air into the cylinders like it mentioned in your link?
-I don't think its air, I just think the lines are pressurized as above.

If I were to go to just fast dump position with the grapple jaws already open would I accomplish fast dump/regen?
-No, since there is not enough weight on the grapple jaw to help pull it down

Thanks again for your help.
I don't know yet enough about the FEL valve; I do NOT know of any lockout for regen position, I do know one can lock any action by the FEL valve to prevent the loader from moving at all. I believe it is cable controlled. What would adjustment likely render? What I'm asking is what would I want to adjust it to from how it is now?
-I was just thinking that if it was loose or worn, or very stiff it may be hard to find the sweet spot that everything works well.

In rereading your post I see you asked about the joystick, which is a momentary trigger normally open, close on contact switch, (operator activated), which if pulled when joystick/FEL lever is swung left will close the grapple jaw. When swung right and trigger pulled should open the jaws - so long as stick isn't pushed into regen during this motion,(your example of too far).
-Remember that the diverter is like a either/or switch, or DPDT is your familier with electronics. You should not be operating it while trying to move the joystick at the same time. So to dump your logs, tilt the bucket/grapple down, return the joystick to neutral, pull the trigger, then move the joystick to open the grapple. It does take some practice to finesse everything, I struggled to be 'smooth' with my diverter setup as well at first.
Also, are you sure the regen is at the farthest throw of the joystick? I know on some Kubota models it actually at the beginning of the travel and they have to push through the regen to get to the normal function.

Should regen function better with a loader full of John Deere parts, for instance?
-Of course, that goes without saying

 

[Coyote machine]

Coyote machine,

Are you selecting the grapple first when using the joystick.
The grapple is the only thing working off the joystick.

If you do, the grapple will be in fast grapple when you go into regen.

If you don't go into regen, the grapple should act normally.
It does.

You might try changing out the momentary switch to a SPST switch.
It's a pull to activate, release to de-activate= normally open, close on contact circuit, (I believe).

CURL-GRAPPLE default is curl.

Again, select the grapple first before working the joystick.
Not sure what this means; joystick controls grapple function, switch on stick opens or closes jaw of grapple.

If you want fast dump on the bucket, flip the switch to off/default.
OK, so don't use the switch to get fast dump....

Thanks J J for your response, it's appreciated!:thumbsup:

Red text above for clarification of who is saying what, eh?

 

[Coyote machine]

kennyd,
Thanks for your response. So, if I understand correctly there may be no actual 'problem' except for possible operator error?
-Your welcome. I am just suggesting the the movements you described the grapple doing are typicle if the valve is placed in the regen position, both lines pressurized.

Questions I have about what is happening: Am I, or can I harm the valve, (FEL), or diverter, by making the too far to the right, (into regen) move; when I'm actually looking to dump logs with the grapple WHILE pulling the joystick trigger, seeking to OPEN the jaws at the same time, so the load will dump?
-I don't believe you will harm the valve or diverter at all.

Why does the dump move slowly when it's supposed to be fast dump; is it because I'm trying to open the grapple jaws while in regen INSTEAD of just regular dump position.
-It moves slowly becasue both lines are pressurized, but since there is more fluid volume in one side of the cylinder it "overcomes" the other side and the piston extends (grapple closes). In regular FEL operation the weight of the bucket (and the materials in it) aid in this. I think thats pretty well described in the first post of the link I posted as well.

Does the 'recovery time' lapse as a result of being in the wrong position, (regen) when I should be in normal dump?
-Not quite sure what that means?

It seems like everything goes into slow motion when I screw up and end up in regen when I wanted to just dump logs while/after opening the jaws. Am I introducing air into the cylinders like it mentioned in your link?
-I don't think its air, I just think the lines are pressurized as above.

If I were to go to just fast dump position with the grapple jaws already open would I accomplish fast dump/regen?
-No, since there is not enough weight on the grapple jaw to help pull it down

Thanks again for your help.
I don't know yet enough about the FEL valve; I do NOT know of any lockout for regen position, I do know one can lock any action by the FEL valve to prevent the loader from moving at all. I believe it is cable controlled. What would adjustment likely render? What I'm asking is what would I want to adjust it to from how it is now?
-I was just thinking that if it was loose or worn, or very stiff it may be hard to find the sweet spot that everything works well.

In rereading your post I see you asked about the joystick, which is a momentary trigger normally open, close on contact switch, (operator activated), which if pulled when joystick/FEL lever is swung left will close the grapple jaw. When swung right and trigger pulled should open the jaws - so long as stick isn't pushed into regen during this motion,(your example of too far).
-Remember that the diverter is like a either/or switch, or DPDT is your familier with electronics. You should not be operating it while trying to move the joystick at the same time. So to dump your logs, tilt the bucket/grapple down, return the joystick to neutral, pull the trigger, then move the joystick to open the grapple. It does take some practice to finesse everything, I struggled to be 'smooth' with my diverter setup as well at first.
Interesting, thought I could pull trigger to open grapple jaw WHILE swinging to dump position, in one motion; if I understand what you said above, you're saying I can't do what I want the valve(s) to do and should do what you state above INSTEAD of what I've been trying to do?!
Also, are you sure the regen is at the farthest throw of the joystick? I know on some Kubota models it actually at the beginning of the travel and they have to push through the regen to get to the normal function.
Na, on a real tractor like mine, :laughing: as opposed to the other orange machine, regen is farthest right!:confused3:

Should regen function better with a loader full of John Deere parts, for instance?
-Of course, that goes without saying
Cool! :dance1:

Thanks for your detailed responses. (Red text for who's saying what).

 

[J_J]

Coyote machine,

In regen, you don't need anything to help curl the grapple or the bucket. The cyl has fluid going in, and the bucket or the grapple is going to move.

When you select regen, you close off the valve OUT port, and the rod fluid plus the pump fluid is merged and now flows into the cyl for what is called the fast dump, about 50% faster., which also has less force.

The way it appears, is that you are making the curl cyl go into regen before you switch to grapple and now the grapple is in regen, trying to catch up. In addition, the grapple cyl might be a much larger size.

So what I am suggesting is to activate the diverter valve before moving the joystick lever, and not go into regen.

If you do go into regen with the grapple, it should be fast and with less power.

When using the the grapple for power, select it first, and don't go into regen, about half lever.

The full motion of the lever provides speed of operation. Regen provides even more speed.

 

[kennyd]

Thanks for your detailed responses. (Red text for who's saying what).

Again, you are quite welcome.

Interesting, thought I could pull trigger to open grapple jaw WHILE swinging to dump position, in one motion; if I understand what you said above, you're saying I can't do what I want the valve(s) to do and should do what you state above INSTEAD of what I've been trying to do?!

No sir, you should not be powering the diverter solenoid while you are moving the joystick. Select where to fluid is going first (grapple or bucket), then send the fluid moving left or right.

You are trying to move the track switch while the train is already crossing it, and not before (a railroad analogy)

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks again kennyd and J J.

I know what I need now, I just have to invent and patent it! I need a voice activated joystick! You know like 'genius' for iPod/phone/tunes, which figures out what songs I would like based on what I already have.
So it would hear MY voice and: regen + open, curl tight, open wide, grab brush, drop logs, etc. THEN it would hear a different OP tell it different commands, AND learn your method of operating, J J, or kennyd, and do what you want. Manual override for super smooth finesse moves, as needed!
Cool, I'm gonna be RICH!:cool2:
You guys get to beta test the proto-types, FREE!:thumbsup: