Loader : Broke my FEL Valve?! (possibly?).

[Coyote machine]

After changing over to my loader bucket it seems evident something in my loader circuit is not working right. If I put the bucket edge perpendicular to my driveway I used to be able to backdrag my bucket to smooth out/scrape my driveway. I tried it today and the bucket does NOT resist being backdragged at all. It just folds to the front, AWAY from the tractor, and I can't scrape or backdrag any material or topsoil, no matter how small the pile is.:thumbdown:
How do I get it back to normal?

TIA,

CM

 

[k0ua]

After changing over to my loader bucket it seems evident something in my loader circuit is not working right. If I put the bucket edge perpendicular to my driveway I used to be able to backdrag my bucket to smooth out/scrape my driveway. I tried it today and the bucket does NOT resist being backdragged at all. It just folds to the front, AWAY from the tractor, and I can't scrape or backdrag any material or topsoil, no matter how small the pile is.:thumbdown:
How do I get it back to normal?

TIA,

CM

CM. is it possible it has something to do the diverter you added? Can you "replumb" it back stock for a minute to see if it is the FEL valve or the diverter? Just talking out my rear, here, but it is all I can think of for now. Oh, how about pointing the bucket down, and unhooking the curl/dump hoses and see if the cylinders hold pressure? They should be in hydrolock by themselves right?

James K0UA

 

[Coyote machine]

CM. is it possible it has something to do the diverter you added? Can you "replumb" it back stock for a minute to see if it is the FEL valve or the diverter? Just talking out my rear, here, but it is all I can think of for now. Oh, how about pointing the bucket down, and unhooking the curl/dump hoses and see if the cylinders hold pressure? They should be in hydrolock by themselves right?

James K0UA

James, I'm not a hydraulics guy for the most part.:confused3: The diverter valve only is 'in circuit' when I activate it to open or close the grapple, etc. by pulling the joystick trigger. Not saying it isn't a possible issue, but I'm leaning toward the FEL valve since recently I seem to have been taxing it with the confusion I've had about the joystick trigger and the regen circuit- see my most recent post about it.

Quote: "..."Oh, how about pointing the bucket down, and unhooking the curl/dump hoses and see if the cylinders hold pressure? They should be in hydrolock by themselves right?"

That's sorta' what I'm thinking too- that the cylinders are NOT behaving properly- somehow something is allowing them to go any which way they're pushed and what is causing that is what the problem is... for some reason they're NOT locking when they should.

I will try what you suggested tomorrow and see what happens.

Thanks for suggestion/reply.:thumbsup:

 

[rmorey]

CM, you recently plumbed a diverter valve in the curl circuit to operate your grapple. Is it possible, that now provides a parallel circuit for flow, therefore allowing "leakage" to occur? I'm not a hydraulic guy either, but as an old military electronics technician, its been my experience that the problem is usually at or near the last place of adjustment/repair. Just throwin this out there. :confused3:

 

[k0ua]

CM, you recently plumbed a diverter valve in the curl circuit to operate your grapple. Is it possible, that now provides a parallel circuit for flow, therefore allowing "leakage" to occur? I'm not a hydraulic guy either, but as an old military electronics technician, its been my experience that the problem is usually at or near the last place of adjustment/repair. Just throwin this out there. :confused3:

Electronics/telephony tech here for the last 40 years, and that is how I think too... What was the last thing I added, and how would this affect current operation. But I am thinking he could eliminate the cylinders pretty easy with just disconnecting a couple of hoses.

 

[rmorey]

Electronics/telephony tech here for the last 40 years, and that is how I think too... What was the last thing I added, and how would this affect current operation. But I am thinking he could eliminate the cylinders pretty easy with just disconnecting a couple of hoses.

I always work back to a known serviceable spot, then the problem is usually self evident at that point. I agreed with your advice to replumb to spec. That verifies the serviceability of everything except the new parts. Heck, what if the new valve has a problem? Its been known to happen!

 

[Coyote machine]

The diverter valve is NOT new. The only thing I changed recently is the momentary switch which activates the valve by pushing it. I replaced the factory FEL lever knob with a joystick handle and it has a trigger switch, which replaces the push button one, for easier control of the lever's motions, especially in winter.
Because of the longer and higher location of the joystick I inadvertently 'found' the FEL valve's regen position, (fast dump). This caused me some ergonomic issues with inadvertently swinging the lever too far while pulling the trigger, Essentially I found myself trying to open the grapple's jaw(s) while trying to dump logs and in doing so I would end up in regen and the grapple moving backward toward me and not opening the jaws.
This may have caused a problem with the FEL valve or the diverter. I will try disconnecting the curl/dump hoses to see what the cylinders do, and report back the results.

Thanks, guys for your efforts- I'm confident we'll figure this out- If I'm lucky it is just an adjustment/tweak of some pressure/flow orifice. Here's hoping.:confused3:

 

[Coyote machine]

UPDATE: I remembered that when I was working on the trees teh other day I noticed the outermost QD under the floorpan on right side of tractor, had disengaged, and I made haste to reconnect it. I did NOT do what I would usually do, clean off the male QD end and female QD orifice 'because I was in the field and needed to keep working.
This am I decided to recheck the situation and disconnected the QD and cleaned the male end and used an inspection mirror and LED light to check the female QD for any signs of contamination. I did not find anything noteworthy and reassembled the fitting and tested the backblade position and it seemed to work OK with a little give at initial application of the backdrag, but not like before, where the blade would just give way and the cylinders would provide no resistance. Unfortunately, later today the same symptoms returned, for no apparent reason that I can discern.

Any thoughts?

TIA,

CM :confused3:

 

[k0ua]

Disconnect again and re-connect. and see what happens.. I don't have a lot of respect for coincidences.. you are hot on the trail of something... I am not sure what.

 

[Coyote machine]

I hear you on that. I will try it again and report results. After doing so I'm also going to change both hydraulic filters, they're due. I want to see what comes out of them too. And depending on the results of both I may also go for a hydro trans fluid change. I'm at nearly 600 hrs with original fluid.

 

[J_J]

Can you get relief pressure on the cyl you are trying to operate?

If yes, then the cyl are OK.

In neutral, the cyl are locked.

If you had a gage installed, you could monitor and trouble shoot the hyd system.

If your bucket folds when all levers are in neutral, then I would suspect the seals.

Is the valve spool returning back to neutral.

There are spool centering springs and a nut under the cap on the bottom of the valve. Remove and check. Move the lever fully in and out when checking.

Are you holding any lever when back dragging, or do you put the lift in float and back drag?

 

[Coyote machine]

Can you get relief pressure on the cyl you are trying to operate?

Not sure- read down....

If yes, then the cyl are OK.

In neutral, the cyl are locked.
OK.

If you had a gage installed, you could monitor and trouble shoot the hyd system.
Understood.

If your bucket folds when all levers are in neutral, then I would suspect the seals.
OK, which ones, cylinders, valve body which controls the cyls?

Is the valve spool returning back to neutral.
Not sure what a valve spool is exactly; is it the little thumb sized canister bolted to the outside of the valve body?

There are spool centering springs and a nut under the cap on the bottom of the valve. Remove and check. Move the lever fully in and out when checking.
I'll need more guidance as to where to do this, when we get to that juncture.

Are you holding any lever when back dragging, or do you put the lift in float and back drag?
I lever the bucket edge perpendicular to ground. I can then push the lever down and the front wheels will lift off the ground. With the wheels on the ground, not levering in any direction, I can initiate back dragging, but the bucket edge folds forward, and does NOT back drag any amount of material.

I disconnected the QD under the right side floor pan, then inspected them, cleaned them and reassembled. Tried it out, no better results. I then ran engine 'till warm and removed both HST and hydraulic filters. I kept all fluid from both, and then installed and ran, and leak checked both filters. No change of symptoms in the back drag efforts.
I don't know if what I just wrote tells you anything about what is happening, but I'm mostly clueless as to what is causing the symptoms. All else I can say is even with a 72" bucket attached I cannot get the regen/fast dump to function- it will still pull the bucket up toward the tractor's front end INSTEAD of fast dumping, even loaded full of topsoil. In fact, I don't think regen has ever worked; I don't remember ever seeing the bucket dump fast, and if I had I likely would have remembered it and learned how to repeat it....

Thanks, J J, hope what I wrote makes some sense to you....

 

[rmorey]

I disconnected the QD under the right side floor pan, then inspected them, cleaned them and reassembled. Tried it out, no better results. I then ran engine 'till warm and removed both HST and hydraulic filters. I kept all fluid from both, and then installed and ran, and leak checked both filters. No change of symptoms in the back drag efforts.
I don't know if what I just wrote tells you anything about what is happening, but I'm mostly clueless as to what is causing the symptoms. All else I can say is even with a 72" bucket attached I cannot get the regen/fast dump to function- it will still pull the bucket up toward the tractor's front end INSTEAD of fast dumping, even loaded full of topsoil. In fact, I don't think regen has ever worked; I don't remember ever seeing the bucket dump fast, and if I had I likely would have remembered it and learned how to repeat it....

Thanks, J J, hope what I wrote makes some sense to you....

CM, did you disconnect, check and reconnect all four QD's under the floorboard? Thinking that if one can get bumped loose then maybe others did as well. According to the loader manual, the two QD's innermost (red and white) deal with "tilt" and the two outermost (yellow and green) are for lift. Your problem seems to be in the tilt circuit, since there is no such thing as a coincidence...

 

[Coyote machine]

CM, did you disconnect, check and reconnect all four QD's under the floorboard? Thinking that if one can get bumped loose then maybe others did as well. According to the loader manual, the two QD's innermost (red and white) deal with "tilt" and the two outermost (yellow and green) are for lift. Your problem seems to be in the tilt circuit, since there is no such thing as a coincidence...

I've checked all by making sure I cannot pull any out of their female QD. The one that came loose is the outermost one, the one exposed the most to under chassis traffic by gremlins, rocks, sticks, etc. It is yellow colored one. The two innermost ones are where my diverter connects into the valve body below floorpan and feeds the diverter valve body. There are no leaks anywhere on my tractor, from any fluid holding mechanism; engine, hydraulics, coolant, etc. I check it everyday for spots of liquid on the shop floor.

 

[rmorey]

I've checked all by making sure I cannot pull any out of their female QD. The one that came loose is the outermost one, the one exposed the most to under chassis traffic by gremlins, rocks, sticks, etc. It is yellow colored one. The two innermost ones are where my diverter connects into the valve body below floorpan and feeds the diverter valve body. There are no leaks anywhere on my tractor, from any fluid holding mechanism; engine, hydraulics, coolant, etc. I check it everyday for spots of liquid on the shop floor.

Interesting, my manual says the outermost one is green. Red is innermost, then white, yellow and finally green. Just checked the loader and it confirms the manual is correct.

 

[Coyote machine]

I'm not sure the color matching is important as that each hose corresponds to each valve QD location. My prior Kioti also had mixed up boots/plugs for the hoses/valve's QDs, and when I tried to match up the same colors it made something work backwards. I think there must be a colorchallenged or dsylexic mechanic in my dealer's shop?!:confused2:

 

[seacap04]

CM, Is this the first time back dragging since diverter valve install? If your diverter valve is plumbed into the same hoses as the curl cylinders, could the diverter valve be creating an oil path around the FEL control valve? Could the diverter valve spool be hanging up and not closing all the way? Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Coyote machine]

CM, Is this the first time back dragging since diverter valve install? If your diverter valve is plumbed into the same hoses as the curl cylinders, could the diverter valve be creating an oil path around the FEL control valve? Could the diverter valve spool be hanging up and not closing all the way? Just my 2 cents worth.

Seacap04,
No, the diverter valve has been in place for about a year, maybe more? IIRC.
How do I figure out what is happening?
I have been digging out huge amounts of packed topsoil at my flip property. I can cut with the bucket edge going forward. I can push the edge into the hillside and curl back once I reach relief sounds and lift a full bucket no problem. When I try to back drag the bucket edge immediately gives way and drags no material. I can pull the bucket all the way back against the loader arm stops and stick the bucket edge into the soil and attempt to drag back, with no resistance from the bucket...

What you said about the possible oil 'path' around the FEL valve; assuming that is the case for the moment, what to do to verify and then fix it? I'm not aware how to determine if the diverter valve spool is hanging up, and if it is what to do to stop it.

 

[seacap04]

CM, I do not know how your diverter valve is plumbed. My original thought was instead of a "closed" system which you would have with FEL in the neutral position oil could not move unless a cylinder seal was leaking. My thought was that if the diverter valve was plumbed into the curl circuit and hanging up you could create an "open" circuit where oil could move it either direction. However, if this was true, you would not be able to dig in packed soil without issues. Also if the FEL valve had issues, you could not dig packed dirt with out the bucket being uncontrollable. I need to reread your posts for another clue. The question as I see it, every thing is normal, except down pressure on curl.

 

[Coyote machine]

Seems accurate. Let me ask you this: if you go to regen/fast dump with a full bucket of whatever, does you bucket dump faster than it does in regular dump? And in regular dump does it dump slower than when curling the bucket back with the same load? When I've been working her in the dirt and stop to take a break, I notice the larger cylinders, underside of FEL arms, are hot. Not so hot that I can't put my hand on them but hot nonetheless. I suspect this is normal, but don't know how hot would be too hot - indicating a problem?
If I could figure out what to take apart and clean, or what to replace, I'd do it- but nothing seems to jump out at me as to what to look for. If there was a symptom tree I could follow it to it's logical conclusion.
I need to be able to use the backdrag ability to smooth out the landscape.
I re-read your last sentence; isn't down pressure for backdragging the opposite of curling position on the FEL lever? Wouldn't the bucket curl UP and not down? I'm confused....