Scott85
Bronze Member
We see a lot of lamas in the field with cows in Virginia, do you know if they are
as mean a donkey?
Last edited:
Saw a Coyote? on our Land
- Thread starter extrakt0r
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We see a lot of lamas in the field with cows in Virginia, do you know if they are
as mean a donkey?
Soundguy
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looks like a job for .218 BEE 
dave1949
Super Star Member
Of course there is something wrong, that's what I'm telling you. The coyotes are there because the wolves are gone. The question is, what to do about it? We tend to want wildlife strictly on our terms, as measured by how successful hunting is, but that is wrong-headed. Wildlife management has to be more than ensuring you get a deer. We know how that turns out from history.
By any measure, Virginia has done a great job of rebuilding the deer herd from very low numbers. In Maine we have similar issues. Too many deer in the south, too few in the north. Most of the deer scarcity in northern Maine (near the northern limit for white tail deer) can be traced back to habitat changes in wintering yards and weather. Add in plentiful snowmobile trails that make it easy for coyotes to travel long distances in winter. It's just not the way it was years ago.
As far as coyote control, the Maine DNR proposed it's useful hunting them in cases where they are preying on wintering deer in deep snow, and are already weakened by low nutrition. Other than that specific situation--which to an extent is compensating for poor habitat--any wildlife biologist will tell you coyotes do not impact the deer herd to any great extent. The more coyotes you kill, the more litters they drop as long as food is available.
You hear coyotes and fewer deer are being taken in your county. That's not a proof of cause and effect. Do you see deer carcasses that are coyote kills? How many? They are supposed to eat a few, you know.
Wolves were extirpated because they found domestic animals easy prey. Same for coyotes taking a calf from an animal that has had any natural smarts bred out of it, by and large, besides being penned inside a kill zone. It isn't meaningful to transfer that situation to coyotes killing deer because they have little in common.
Scott85
Bronze Member
Of course there is something wrong, that's what I'm telling you. The coyotes are there because the wolves are gone. The question is, what to do about it? We tend to want wildlife strictly on our terms, as measured by how successful hunting is, but that is wrong-headed. Wildlife management has to be more than ensuring you get a deer. We know how that turns out from history.
By any measure, Virginia has done a great job of rebuilding the deer herd from very low numbers. In Maine we have similar issues. Too many deer in the south, too few in the north. Most of the deer scarcity in northern Maine (near the northern limit for white tail deer) can be traced back to habitat changes in wintering yards and weather. Add in plentiful snowmobile trails that make it easy for coyotes to travel long distances in winter. It's just not the way it was years ago.
As far as coyote control, the Maine DNR proposed it's useful hunting them in cases where they are preying on wintering deer in deep snow, and are already weakened by low nutrition. Other than that specific situation--which to an extent is compensating for poor habitat--any wildlife biologist will tell you coyotes do not impact the deer herd to any great extent. The more coyotes you kill, the more litters they drop as long as food is available.
You hear coyotes and fewer deer are being taken in your county. That's not a proof of cause and effect. Do you see deer carcasses that are coyote kills? How many? They are supposed to eat a few, you know.
Wolves were extirpated because they found domestic animals easy prey. Same for coyotes taking a calf from an animal that has had any natural smarts bred out of it, by and large, besides being penned inside a kill zone. It isn't meaningful to transfer that situation to coyotes killing deer because they have little in common.
You make it very difficult to make a rebuttal. You are right I am making a direct collation from the number of coyote sighting and hearing them to the number of deer I am seeing. It could be any number of reasons for us to see less deer, maybe before the number of deer that we saw was to much for the land. We mange the number of deer and other animals by hunting the same should go for coyotes. Not saying to go poison them because they are here to stay. On a side note the mountain loin is still in the hills of Virginia and West Virginia.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Coyotes are a oft-discussed and cussed topic here, along with wildlife management issues as they relate to hunting. I noticed in another thread you are planning some food plots when you get back to the states next spring. Hope that goes well for you.
I just read today that turkey populations are tailing off or in decline in the Mid-Atlantic & some Southern states. I guess at this point no one is certain of the reasons but several have been proposed. The article appeared in the Nov-Dec issue of Audubon Magazine, but I see that article isn't available online.
Turkeys are another great success story, but we still have much to learn apparently. So it goes with wildlife management. I would like to see huge habitat areas set aside with no management or intrusion. That probably won't happen so you are right, some active management is going to be needed as the next best thing.
Scott85
Bronze Member
I am glad that we could have a healthy debate or look at a topic from different view points, where nobody acted like a school age kid.
dave1949
Super Star Member
Ditto and thank you.
westcliffe01
Veteran Member
Read the initial results of the study below. Basically, 73% of the collared fawns were killed by predators and the humble coyote topped the list for the most kills. I have seen a dramatic reduction in the deer population on the 100 acre sheep farm were I have permission to hunt and where I have been working on predator control for the past few years. A couple winters ago when I shot my first deer there, does moved around in groups of over 30. One would see deer any day that one was out. 3 mild winters later, we should be seeing huge amount of deer, but in fact I have only seen 1 doe on the property all year. I know that during the last 2 seasons, a total of 7 deer were taken on the property, so they are not being over hunted either.
The coyotes on the property have reacted to my predatory activities by going totally nocturnal. That has worked out well for the farmer, since the sheep know to retire to the barn for the night and they have 2 guard dogs who are territorial in that area. Last year 2 sheep were lost and this year so far just 1. I have however camped out on the property and if you put 400 yards or more between yourself and the farm buildings you will be surrounded by more than a dozen coyotes at night. I have tried red predator lamps, but the coyotes are too "educated" to even have a chance with that technique. I have also found that predator lamps are very risky when one has horses and other livestock that run around at night, since one usually can't really tell what is lurking in the gloom behind the coyote you just lit up.
So starting this winter I have invested in a Gen 3 NV scope and a new (MI night legal) rifle and am presently building a 24' elevated "observation post" which will allow 24/7 spotting (provided there is someone to man it) while not freezing to death. The coyotes are pretty soon going to learn that night time is not safe on this farm either. The key thing is that us humans need to have the ability to make the predators feel unwelcome in settings they do not belong, such as livestock farms or residential subdivisions. Ignoring coyotes in such circumstances is sure to have a price later. I now have more intrusion from coyotes on my 1/3 acre residential lot than the farmer has within 200 yards of his home. But I do not have a Great Pyrenees to be a guard dog for my minipins either....
Experts surprised by which predator is No. 1 killer of deer in Michigan's Upper Peninsula | MLive.com
Howard Meyerson | The Grand Rapids Press By Howard Meyerson | The Grand Rapids Press
on April 02, 2012 at 8:00 AM
ESCANABA Michigan hunters have been known to say that state痴 growing wolf population is bad for deer. Their lament is about the diminished Upper Peninsula whitetail population. It痴 not unusual to hear someone claim: 展olf are eating all the deer.?br>
But what researchers found this past winter, the third year of a western U.P. deer mortality study, is that coyotes were the No. 1 predator followed by bobcats. Wolves came in fourth after a three-way tie among hunters, unknown predators and undetermined causes.
的 was somewhat surprised to see coyotes play as large a role in fawn predation as they did..., said Jerry Belant, an associate professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Mississippi State University. Belant oversees student researchers who are working in partnership with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. He said coyotes were more prevalent than expected. There were also few rabbits and hares to feed upon.
Researchers got their data from 142 fawns fitted with GPS collars. The devices transmitted their location every 15 minutes. Eighty collared fawns died during the three year first phase of the study. Predators killed 73 percent of the deer.
The coyotes on the property have reacted to my predatory activities by going totally nocturnal. That has worked out well for the farmer, since the sheep know to retire to the barn for the night and they have 2 guard dogs who are territorial in that area. Last year 2 sheep were lost and this year so far just 1. I have however camped out on the property and if you put 400 yards or more between yourself and the farm buildings you will be surrounded by more than a dozen coyotes at night. I have tried red predator lamps, but the coyotes are too "educated" to even have a chance with that technique. I have also found that predator lamps are very risky when one has horses and other livestock that run around at night, since one usually can't really tell what is lurking in the gloom behind the coyote you just lit up.
So starting this winter I have invested in a Gen 3 NV scope and a new (MI night legal) rifle and am presently building a 24' elevated "observation post" which will allow 24/7 spotting (provided there is someone to man it) while not freezing to death. The coyotes are pretty soon going to learn that night time is not safe on this farm either. The key thing is that us humans need to have the ability to make the predators feel unwelcome in settings they do not belong, such as livestock farms or residential subdivisions. Ignoring coyotes in such circumstances is sure to have a price later. I now have more intrusion from coyotes on my 1/3 acre residential lot than the farmer has within 200 yards of his home. But I do not have a Great Pyrenees to be a guard dog for my minipins either....
Experts surprised by which predator is No. 1 killer of deer in Michigan's Upper Peninsula | MLive.com
Howard Meyerson | The Grand Rapids Press By Howard Meyerson | The Grand Rapids Press
on April 02, 2012 at 8:00 AM
ESCANABA Michigan hunters have been known to say that state痴 growing wolf population is bad for deer. Their lament is about the diminished Upper Peninsula whitetail population. It痴 not unusual to hear someone claim: 展olf are eating all the deer.?br>
But what researchers found this past winter, the third year of a western U.P. deer mortality study, is that coyotes were the No. 1 predator followed by bobcats. Wolves came in fourth after a three-way tie among hunters, unknown predators and undetermined causes.
的 was somewhat surprised to see coyotes play as large a role in fawn predation as they did..., said Jerry Belant, an associate professor of Wildlife Ecology and Management at Mississippi State University. Belant oversees student researchers who are working in partnership with the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. He said coyotes were more prevalent than expected. There were also few rabbits and hares to feed upon.
Researchers got their data from 142 fawns fitted with GPS collars. The devices transmitted their location every 15 minutes. Eighty collared fawns died during the three year first phase of the study. Predators killed 73 percent of the deer.
dave1949
Super Star Member
how deer managers can decrease fawn mortality | Deer & Deer Hunting | Whitetail Deer Hunting Tips
Predator Control
Killing predators is one way to improve fawn survival rates, at least in the short term. For example, a recent study in Alabama demonstrated that experimental removal of coyotes and bobcats more than doubled annual survival rates. Historically, the same was found in Texas.
Unfortunately, the killing of important predators — such as wolves, bears and bobcats — is often closely regulated by state wildlife agencies; only the coyote can be legally subjected to almost unregulated population reduction. Even so, according to Mississippi State University professor Bruce Leopold, killing off coyotes to improve fawn survival might not be the best management approach.
In a 2005 interview with Quality Whitetails Editor Lindsay Thomas, Leopold warned that killing coyotes to increase newborn fawn survival “is a fight you may not want to get into.” In fact, he contends sometimes it might do more harm than good because disruption of the coyote’s strict dominance hierarchy might actually increase coyote predation of fawns.
“If you hit that [coyote] population, it has the ability to respond very quickly to reduced numbers, and a female may crank out that maximum of 10 to 12 pups in a litter instead of two or three,” Leopold reported. “You can worsen the problem. Now you’ve shifted your population from a few old animals that are regulating themselves, potentially killing each other to maintain dominance, to a population of young, inexperienced animals in greater numbers who may have a greater impact on your deer population. So there’s a proper balance between deer and coyotes that regulates itself. You can easily get an overpopulated deer herd, but it’s difficult to get overpopulated coyotes because they don’t mind killing each other.”
It’s not that trapping and shooting coyotes can’t effectively lower predator numbers and improve fawn survival rates. It can, at least in the short term. And habituated fawn-killing coyotes probably should be eliminated. But coyote removal must be intense and the effort must be continued to be effective in the long-term.
In Leopold’s view, a better approach to minimizing newborn fawn mortality is through proper deer population and habitat management.
Experts surprised by which predator is No. 1 killer of deer in Michigan's Upper Peninsula | MLive.com
I wish the numbers were more complete in this linked story. Coyotes #1, bobcats #2, but no numbers. #3 - 64,000 by hunters and unknown predators and causes, and #4 - wolves 17,000 to 29,000.
This is a roughly overall 44% survival rate (assuming of the eighty collared fawns killed, 73% were killed by predators):
Researchers got their data from 142 fawns fitted with GPS collars. The devices transmitted their location every 15 minutes. Eighty collared fawns died during the three year first phase of the study. Predators killed 73 percent of the deer.
Predator Control
Killing predators is one way to improve fawn survival rates, at least in the short term. For example, a recent study in Alabama demonstrated that experimental removal of coyotes and bobcats more than doubled annual survival rates. Historically, the same was found in Texas.
Unfortunately, the killing of important predators — such as wolves, bears and bobcats — is often closely regulated by state wildlife agencies; only the coyote can be legally subjected to almost unregulated population reduction. Even so, according to Mississippi State University professor Bruce Leopold, killing off coyotes to improve fawn survival might not be the best management approach.
In a 2005 interview with Quality Whitetails Editor Lindsay Thomas, Leopold warned that killing coyotes to increase newborn fawn survival “is a fight you may not want to get into.” In fact, he contends sometimes it might do more harm than good because disruption of the coyote’s strict dominance hierarchy might actually increase coyote predation of fawns.
“If you hit that [coyote] population, it has the ability to respond very quickly to reduced numbers, and a female may crank out that maximum of 10 to 12 pups in a litter instead of two or three,” Leopold reported. “You can worsen the problem. Now you’ve shifted your population from a few old animals that are regulating themselves, potentially killing each other to maintain dominance, to a population of young, inexperienced animals in greater numbers who may have a greater impact on your deer population. So there’s a proper balance between deer and coyotes that regulates itself. You can easily get an overpopulated deer herd, but it’s difficult to get overpopulated coyotes because they don’t mind killing each other.”
It’s not that trapping and shooting coyotes can’t effectively lower predator numbers and improve fawn survival rates. It can, at least in the short term. And habituated fawn-killing coyotes probably should be eliminated. But coyote removal must be intense and the effort must be continued to be effective in the long-term.
In Leopold’s view, a better approach to minimizing newborn fawn mortality is through proper deer population and habitat management.
Experts surprised by which predator is No. 1 killer of deer in Michigan's Upper Peninsula | MLive.com
I wish the numbers were more complete in this linked story. Coyotes #1, bobcats #2, but no numbers. #3 - 64,000 by hunters and unknown predators and causes, and #4 - wolves 17,000 to 29,000.
This is a roughly overall 44% survival rate (assuming of the eighty collared fawns killed, 73% were killed by predators):
Researchers got their data from 142 fawns fitted with GPS collars. The devices transmitted their location every 15 minutes. Eighty collared fawns died during the three year first phase of the study. Predators killed 73 percent of the deer.
Lou66
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More so.. I had a Llama he didn't like any kind of dog.. He was funny watching him with his head below the grass line running at a 5000 dollars hunting dog or twenty five cent coyote,, I could tell more stories about him than any animal I have ever own.. by the way his name was Tony Llama.. Lou
