Saw a Coyote? on our Land

   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #31  
Here in Michigan we have in all 83 counties - even down in the city. We hear them sometimes in the summer at night. Now and then we do a pig roast and when we take the leftover carcass to the back of the property well hear them yipping and fighting back there for a few nights in row. They do an excellent job of cleaning up.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #32  
I don't buy the comments regarding litter of 12... What a joke.... Perhaps in the south, with mild weather, but not here in MI. Thats equivalent to saying that when the baby daddy walks out on the momma, that she is going to add a bunch more offspring, raise them herself and increase her standard of living.....

<snip>

Its mainly city folk who are champions for the wolf and coyote, or hobby farmers who do not rely on income from their operation. Securing pastures against coyotes in an effective manner can be done, but is again expensive and high maintenance. I have met alpaca breeders who had 8 ft high "no climb" fences around their pastures along with electrified cattle fence on the outside to deter cattle and bears, but the cost to wrap 100 acres with that kind of material would be eye watering for sure... Most ranchers I met were barely scraping by financially, but were in it for the "lifestyle" and the quality of life.

Twelve pups per litter have been observed apparently. Sounds high to me too for pup survivability. Here is another estimate:
National Trappers Association - Coyote

"Litter sizes average 5 to 7 pups in many areas. Litter sizes seem to be dependent upon coyote population densities. Litters may average 8 or 9 pups where coyote populations are sparse, but on the other hand, this phenomenon may reflect healthier coyotes due to an abundance of food."

Taking seven deer on 100 acres in two years sounds high too, at least around here. I see one or two fawns each year, and I think the does purposely stash them near our house clearing for protection reasons. I don't see much deer scat randomly out in the woods during the fawning season.

The cost of protecting livestock with fencing or professional hunting is really a social cost issue. People want wildlife, ranchers need to make a living; very few want to pay the cost of having both. It would help to put a price tag on what maintaining biodiversity, and the habitat needed for that, costs.

Some of that cost is already present in food products, but it's pretty murky. If the true costs were known, perhaps other choices would be considered. Shepherds maybe, we have lots of unemployed and underemployed people.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #33  
At a selling price of $250-$280/sheep, that is about $37500 to $42000 per year in income (based on 150 sold sheep per year). That has to pay for property taxes, vaccinations, all costs associated with raising, harvesting and storing hay for a 6 month winter, pay for the 2 primary owners + some spring and summer help that is hired out during lambing and peak hay season. Not to mention the mortgage on the property. And I forgot sales tax and income tax....

Hard to see where one is supposed to be able to afford a shepherd or who would be willing to do such a job for minimum wage when it requires one to be outdoors 5 days a week regardless of the weather. Minimum wage would hardly cover the cost of commuting to/from the nearest town. A shepherd would probably need some sort of cabin to live in to avoid the commuting issue and that, in a micromanaged - code obsessed world like ours is a whole additional can of worms (permits, inspections septic system etc etc...).
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #34  
At a selling price of $250-$280/sheep, that is about $37500 to $42000 per year in income (based on 150 sold sheep per year). That has to pay for property taxes, vaccinations, all costs associated with raising, harvesting and storing hay for a 6 month winter, pay for the 2 primary owners + some spring and summer help that is hired out during lambing and peak hay season. Not to mention the mortgage on the property. And I forgot sales tax and income tax....

Hard to see where one is supposed to be able to afford a shepherd or who would be willing to do such a job for minimum wage when it requires one to be outdoors 5 days a week regardless of the weather. Minimum wage would hardly cover the cost of commuting to/from the nearest town. A shepherd would probably need some sort of cabin to live in to avoid the commuting issue and that, in a micromanaged - code obsessed world like ours is a whole additional can of worms (permits, inspections septic system etc etc...).

I think you missed the point. The costs of having wildlife and operating a ranch in some sort of coexistence are not being built into the cost of the products--meat and wildlife habitat. Most of us like to eat meat, and all of us, if we want to maintain a semblance of natural surroundings, need biodiversity.

All of those things you mentioned are money issues. Yes, it costs money to properly dispose of sewage or to build fences that work, for example. The root reason coyotes are a threat to the grower is because not enough money is available to build or provide the needed protections.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #35  
Dave, assuming a utopian existence, how do you suppose it should work ? Would we all just pay more for everything, use less of it, ban importation, impose tariffs, pay everyone union wages, stop exporting altogether (except our trash and used car scrap metal) ?????

Just curious....

The farmer in my case raises the sheep for meat. They are a special breed which sheds, thus does not need to be sheared. His market is the arab / middle eastern population around Detroit who want to either purchase live animals, or be present when the animals are slaughtered to be certain that their customs are adhered to. If he was not catering to this market, his selling price would be lower still, in the face of imports from many different low labor countries where predators are basically non existent.

I don't personally understand why the population values a predator like the coyote or a wolf. Perhaps people who produce grain crops would appreciate them for keeping rodents under control, since their is no conflict of interest or an actual positive benefit from having them. But anyone raising any form of livestock. all the way up to cattle have a constant fight on their hands and it seems everyone is only interested in placing more obstacles in their way to controlling the problem. This takes the form of game laws, firearm transport restrictions, outright bans on the use of centerfire rifles (the only viable tool for such a small, speedy and cunning critter), intrusive activities by game wardens on private property without warrant, denial of claims for damage due to depradation (in the case of wolf and coyotes and sometimes bears)... Its a long list.

In this game, there is only 1 winner and that is the mega property developers. They are the ones that buy up the ranches that are no longer viable due to market prices, depredation issues or whatever, then sell off the water rights to the highest bidder and with that loot then start the process of subdivision and building Mc mansions for the wealthy from cities, who then bring their city values into the countryside and create a mess in the local government with their conflicting value systems which the local tax base cannot afford. Once the large properties are broken down, the only way that things will ever improve for the wildlife, is through some sort of plague which would wipe out the human population. Barring that, it is downhill all the way with increased traffic, more fences, eradication of local sustainable browse and all the other menaces that subdivisions have brought to rural areas all over the country.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #36  
I would rather have a few coyotes around than mice, rats, ferrel rabbits, etc. which is mostly what they eat in my area. As long as they stay wary, I leave them alone. You want the wary ones to have the territory, not the brazen ones that might move in when you eliminate the wary ones.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #37  
Dave, assuming a utopian existence, how do you suppose it should work ? Would we all just pay more for everything, use less of it, ban importation, impose tariffs, pay everyone union wages, stop exporting altogether (except our trash and used car scrap metal) ?????

Just curious....

The farmer in my case raises the sheep for meat. They are a special breed which sheds, thus does not need to be sheared. His market is the arab / middle eastern population around Detroit who want to either purchase live animals, or be present when the animals are slaughtered to be certain that their customs are adhered to. If he was not catering to this market, his selling price would be lower still, in the face of imports from many different low labor countries where predators are basically non existent.

I don't personally understand why the population values a predator like the coyote or a wolf. Perhaps people who produce grain crops would appreciate them for keeping rodents under control, since their is no conflict of interest or an actual positive benefit from having them. But anyone raising any form of livestock. all the way up to cattle have a constant fight on their hands and it seems everyone is only interested in placing more obstacles in their way to controlling the problem. This takes the form of game laws, firearm transport restrictions, outright bans on the use of centerfire rifles (the only viable tool for such a small, speedy and cunning critter), intrusive activities by game wardens on private property without warrant, denial of claims for damage due to depradation (in the case of wolf and coyotes and sometimes bears)... Its a long list.

In this game, there is only 1 winner and that is the mega property developers. They are the ones that buy up the ranches that are no longer viable due to market prices, depredation issues or whatever, then sell off the water rights to the highest bidder and with that loot then start the process of subdivision and building Mc mansions for the wealthy from cities, who then bring their city values into the countryside and create a mess in the local government with their conflicting value systems which the local tax base cannot afford. Once the large properties are broken down, the only way that things will ever improve for the wildlife, is through some sort of plague which would wipe out the human population. Barring that, it is downhill all the way with increased traffic, more fences, eradication of local sustainable browse and all the other menaces that subdivisions have brought to rural areas all over the country.

Okay. What is it worth to you and others to protect habitat by preventing the land subdivision process you describe? It is worth something, quite a bit actually, but the cost or value of that is nowhere to be found. Why is that? How can something real be valued while no one places a dollar amount on it? It can't, and that is the problem in a nutshell. It isn't that it has no value, the issue is that the value is not being recognized.

As a small landowner, I provide the habitat that allows deer and moose hunting. I provide the ecosystem that puts clean water in fishing brooks and lakes. The state sells licenses to harvest what cannot be provided without landowner inputs, yet I don't get paid or compensated for what I am providing. In fact, I pay property taxes for the pleasure of providing free resources. It is another example of a valued resource with no dollar amount attached to it.

We can't sustain unrecognized or ignored costs and benefits in a market-driven economy. It isn't working now, and it isn't going to work as human population levels and increased consumption drive the situation to further unbalanced conditions. How to fix it is above my pay grade, but it needs adjustments somehow.

Maybe a good place to begin would be to stop subsidizing everything under the sun. That requires education and understanding because those subsidies are the "will of the people", the government is just the administrator. If we started paying and benefiting in anything near true values, the market would resolve the issues by itself I think.

If the true cost of shipping sheep products from New Zealand to the US were paid, would it be possible to build ships and burn bunker oil to propel them? There is a lot of environmental degradation involved: mining, drilling, smelting, material transport, and carbon fuel use. None of those are beauty marks on the planet but nobody is paying for the direct and indirect damage with real dollars. I believe if the true costs had to be paid, a lamb from the farmer nearby would be cheaper by far and he could still afford good fences.

Nature is full of prey and predators; eat or be eaten is pretty much the rule of the system. Predators are necessary whether they are wasps or coyotes. We don't mind predation unless it intersects with our financial interests, such as with coyotes and lambs or deer. We know from records written during colonial settlement that wolves did not wipe out the deer or moose, for example. Both were plentiful when Europeans arrived. There is no reason to believe that coyotes are capable of wiping out the deer today. The populations of each are in great flux, and human activities have created and continue to contribute to this situation.

The reasons for human intervention and contribution to change have always been based on financial motives. It is plain and simple a money problem. What money can break, money can fix.

Population growth is driving the urbanization of the planet, such as the problem you described with land developers. Developers need customers, population growth provides an endless stream of customers. If you look at the biodiversity in an urban environment, it's pretty poor. Take away the cock roaches, pigeons, rats and squirrels and there isn't much left.

If we don't want that scenario to be the future of the planet, we need to recognize that is where we are headed and start avoiding it now. We cannot recreate biodiversity once it is lost. Protecting habitat and biodiversity should be a priority. Without biodiversity, we will be eating test tube food and living in an endless cityscape, probably underground because there will be nothing on the surface but toxic air, water and soil.

I realize that none of my blather solves your day-to-day problem of keeping the lambs alive and the coyotes in check. :laughing: However, I think the long term solutions are important to think about.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #38  
Around here we have so much that they kill them it's unbelievable the amount that there is around the farmers feilds
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #39  
Dave, I disagree with this comment. The general trend to move out of the countryside continues. Much of the "exclusive" developments have nothing to do with population growth at all. They are simply the second, 3rd and 4th homes of the super rich. The homes are unoccupied 90% of the time, until the owners retire (if ever). The thing is that the developers (mostly from NYC, Denver, LA and Chicago) are the ones who write the covenants in the subdivisions which are created. So you find yourself in a situation where you are looking at a 36 to 100 acre building site in the rockies, and discover that solar panels are banned, hunting is prohibited, even discharge of a firearm is prohibited. Your well is metered and because the water rights were sold, you are only allowed to draw from the well in times of above average precipitation, since the "average" amount of precipitation has been sold to someone who is pumping water from the river that is fed by the watershed. You can absolutely forget about watering a garden etc. It is amazing how widespread the situation I describe has become. I have spent years now looking for a retirement property in Colorado and so far have found only 1 subdivision that did not have these restrictive covenants.

Population growth is driving the urbanization of the planet, such as the problem you described with land developers. Developers need customers, population growth provides an endless stream of customers. If you look at the biodiversity in an urban environment, it's pretty poor. Take away the cock roaches, pigeons, rats and squirrels and there isn't much left.
 
   / Saw a Coyote? on our Land #40  
Dave, I disagree with this comment. The general trend to move out of the countryside continues. Much of the "exclusive" developments have nothing to do with population growth at all. They are simply the second, 3rd and 4th homes of the super rich. The homes are unoccupied 90% of the time, until the owners retire (if ever). The thing is that the developers (mostly from NYC, Denver, LA and Chicago) are the ones who write the covenants in the subdivisions which are created. So you find yourself in a situation where you are looking at a 36 to 100 acre building site in the rockies, and discover that solar panels are banned, hunting is prohibited, even discharge of a firearm is prohibited. Your well is metered and because the water rights were sold, you are only allowed to draw from the well in times of above average precipitation, since the "average" amount of precipitation has been sold to someone who is pumping water from the river that is fed by the watershed. You can absolutely forget about watering a garden etc. It is amazing how widespread the situation I describe has become. I have spent years now looking for a retirement property in Colorado and so far have found only 1 subdivision that did not have these restrictive covenants.

Come to Maine, we have plenty of water, it's all yours, sunshine for solar, and enough trees to keep you warm the rest of your life. :) You can buy large lots ~100 acres for around $1000/acre in remote areas. Larger parcels can be around $750/acre. Look hard enough and you can find one with a small trout stream even. What you won't find is a local job, so it works for hardy retirees mostly.

Sure, there are areas where what you describe is happening. Colorado and Western Montana are examples. But they are the exception, and probably that is driven by those places being the current "in" place for the wealthy to build. Millionaires attract more millionaires. To some extent, population growth is driving them to make those investments, they are escaping something.

We have something similar happening around Moosehead Lake here in Maine. It's a shame that it will permanently alter the ecology of that fairly pristine area.

The run of the mill developments in urban peripheral areas will drive the building of more and bigger roads, the building of local commercial services, schools and such. Thirty or forty years later, that is no longer the periphery, it is just another sprawl wasteland with very limited habitat and biodiversity. Population growth is a slow-moving cancer upon the land.
 

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