DIY Oil Change People

[DarkBlack]

They probably contract with someone to make the oil to their (walmart's ) specs just enough to meet specs so, they can keep the price as low as possible.

I don't see a problem with that. That's why specs exist.

 

[Soundguy]

the bulk of my tractors are old antique gassers..e tc. 95% of those are living off of walmart oils and the 3 cheap brands of filtrs solt at walmart.. ( doing just fine too! ). I have a couple gassers I did some top end work on recently and converted them to cheap walmart syn oil.. so far doing good too.

I always see that advertised at Advanced Auto. I never buy oil and filters there, they are att least 33-50% more than walmart. I know some look down on them, but im perfectly happy using SuperTech oil and filters on trucks, cars, ect. When I do tractor I normally get Fram filter rather than cross Kubota to Fram, and then Fram to SuperTech.

I pretty much look at oil as something that people worry alot about, but brands really are splitting hairs. As long as it has oil in it, and change it every 5000-10,000 miles/500 hrs you'll be just fine.

 

[Soundguy]

I don't see a problem with that. That's why specs exist.

SAE same as everybody else.

if a oil meets a manufacturers spec.. it meets it....

 

[sixdogs]

SAE same as everybody else.

if a oil meets a manufacturers spec.. it meets it....

I hate to agree with this because I want better branded oil to really be better but soundguy is absolutely correct. If it meets specs, it meets specs and that's the end of the story.

 

[MHarryE]

Believe what you want about meeting specs but in reality there us a significant difference. Could be the "exceeds specs" that many of the premium oils state. Could be that they just barely meet them when new but are so close to the limits. Now if I paid $40k for my L5740 and changed oil once yearly, is it worth the risk to save $30 yearly buying a low cost generic? We've gone through the quandary that some customer's oils we have sampled have been so bad that we wanted to make a system sealed for life because our original fill synthetic was so far superior after 5,000 hours compared to many new "meets the spec" oils. Still many customers complain when they can't change the oil that we kept the fill, level, and drain plugs but put the change interval out past the warranty period. Why did we not just say only the good oil allowed? It's like you read on the forum - why pay the manufacturer the high price when we can find "an" oil that is cheaper. It is hard to look a customer in the eye and tell them that their decision to use a low cost oil cause an expensive failure so major manufacturers who want to stay around forever often eat the warranty claim knowing full well it should be denied. We aren't so lucky trying to claim from our suppliers.

 

[Soundguy]

your statement predisposes a variable. tHE CUSTOMER MUST MAINTAIN THEIR MACHINE. If hte oil meets spec when poured in. it meets spec. 'just barely meets spec is like being just barely pregnant. you are or you aren't. If it meets spec. then it is in the owners lap to change at correct intervals per use. If their oil is worn and ready to change at 250 hrs and not 300.. then they need to change. ( to a different oil.. or same oil and adjust their maintenance schedule. ).

don't blame a fluid on a owners lack of maintenance. If every antique i bought i blemed it's condition onthe oil.. i'd be letting alot of deadbeat owners off the hook. IMHO.. maintenance is on the end of the list for most people....

Do i think there is a place for items that 'greatly exceed' specs.. sure do. And I use some of them where appropriate too.

The best areas I see for the cheaper fluids that just 'meet' or as you term them.. just barely meet ( barely pregnant? ). that would be for a machine that runs 1 per year.. or is used a few hours per year.. Use the cheap oil and then you won't feel bad about draining and changing it... and at low usage.. you can't possibly wear it out.

For instance. my backhoe tractor. It usually digs 1-2 holes per year. or so it has averaged that since i got it. I have yet to rack up more than 10 hours of work ina year on it. walmart just barely pregnant oil will still probably be 99% new when i drain it at the end of the year after 10 hrs of run time.

that's were you save money... 12$ a gallon oil for low use machines. If you want to put in the 32$ a gallon full syn.. go for it.

Believe what you want about meeting specs but in reality there us a significant difference. Could be the "exceeds specs" that many of the premium oils state. Could be that they just barely meet them when new but are so close to the limits. Now if I paid $40k for my L5740 and changed oil once yearly, is it worth the risk to save $30 yearly buying a low cost generic? We've gone through the quandary that some customer's oils we have sampled have been so bad that we wanted to make a system sealed for life because our original fill synthetic was so far superior after 5,000 hours compared to many new "meets the spec" oils. Still many customers complain when they can't change the oil that we kept the fill, level, and drain plugs but put the change interval out past the warranty period. Why did we not just say only the good oil allowed? It's like you read on the forum - why pay the manufacturer the high price when we can find "an" oil that is cheaper. It is hard to look a customer in the eye and tell them that their decision to use a low cost oil cause an expensive failure so major manufacturers who want to stay around forever often eat the warranty claim knowing full well it should be denied. We aren't so lucky trying to claim from our suppliers.

 

[Gary Fowler]

your statement predisposes a variable. tHE CUSTOMER MUST MAINTAIN THEIR MACHINE. If hte oil meets spec when poured in. it meets spec. 'just barely meets spec is like being just barely pregnant. you are or you aren't. If it meets spec. then it is in the owners lap to change at correct intervals per use. If their oil is worn and ready to change at 250 hrs and not 300.. then they need to change. ( to a different oil.. or same oil and adjust their maintenance schedule. ).

don't blame a fluid on a owners lack of maintenance. If every antique i bought i blemed it's condition onthe oil.. i'd be letting alot of deadbeat owners off the hook. IMHO.. maintenance is on the end of the list for most people....

Do i think there is a place for items that 'greatly exceed' specs.. sure do. And I use some of them where appropriate too.

The best areas I see for the cheaper fluids that just 'meet' or as you term them.. just barely meet ( barely pregnant? ). that would be for a machine that runs 1 per year.. or is used a few hours per year.. Use the cheap oil and then you won't feel bad about draining and changing it... and at low usage.. you can't possibly wear it out.

For instance. my backhoe tractor. It usually digs 1-2 holes per year. or so it has averaged that since i got it. I have yet to rack up more than 10 hours of work ina year on it. walmart just barely pregnant oil will still probably be 99% new when i drain it at the end of the year after 10 hrs of run time.

that's were you save money... 12$ a gallon oil for low use machines. If you want to put in the 32$ a gallon full syn.. go for it.

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying. In fact, I am thinking of switching from full synthetic back to straight dino oil as I don't put enough miles or hours on my autos or tractors in a year to justify the difference in cost. Heck my LS 2010 model has only got 90+ hours on it in 3 years. I put much more working hours on my B26 but still 2009 model and only 300+ hours on it. I don't put enough miles on my truck or cars for the computer to say change the oil and it is setup for dino oil use. I think I am wasting my money with the full synthetics when I only need to change due to time lapsed not hours or miles.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I do have to keep with synthetic in my ZTR as the manual calls for synthetic. Don't know what the wife's new Honda CRV calls for but first three oil changes are on the dealer and that will be at least 3years from now before I have to even look at the book on it.

 

[Soundguy]

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying. In fact, I am thinking of switching from full synthetic back to straight dino oil as I don't put enough miles or hours on my autos or tractors in a year to justify the difference in cost. Heck my LS 2010 model has only got 90+ hours on it in 3 years. I put much more working hours on my B26 but still 2009 model and only 300+ hours on it. I don't put enough miles on my truck or cars for the computer to say change the oil and it is setup for dino oil use. I think I am wasting my money with the full synthetics when I only need to change due to time lapsed not hours or miles.

For the ultra low use machines.. I pretty much do that. walmart dino oil and just change them on time interval.. whether it had 1 hr or 20 hrs even if the interval is 300 hr.. etc.

In some rare instances.. like my work trucks.. i still opt to run synthetic for heat / turbo issues. IE.. my f450 is a low miles per year truck. it probably gets 3000 miles. that would be FINE on 1 change on dino oil.. but I opt to run a full syn in it as the truck has a 4.88 rear end.. and to run 70mph down the interstate I'm turning 2700 rpm.. Thus i run a premium oil to help protect turbo bearings from coking.. etc.

if that was a gas work truck that did the same miles local driving .. delivering feed / hay.. etc... i'd have no problem with dino oil.


Air cooled engines is another place I will chip in for synthetic oil... etc..

 

[3930dave]

Bit of apples and coconuts - recent discussion.

Totally different worlds, and I think Harry may have been talking about hydraulic fluid. Yes, I realize that at the end hobby-user level, the issues/thinking often don't change that much (engine vs. hydraulic oil, conventional vs. synth).

Harry's point illustrates well one of the benefits (I know you 2 guys know this, bear with me....) of good synthetics - extended life. That gets real meaningful in an industrial setting, where users are racking up tens of thousands of hours pretty quickly. Hobby use - not on the radar, for many people.

Your old gassers are an extreme example Soundguy. Obviously, any name brand (I include Supertech, to be clear) oil manufactured today that states SAE compliance is leaps and bounds a better oil than anything that was even dreamed of back in the 1950's. Your tractors see low hour use, and I'm guessing few hours are put on by anybody except yourself - they live (now) in a very low stress environment, with consistently good TLC. Not much of a stress load, on a basic modern conventional lube.

By contrast, the global industrial/commercial world Harry was responsible for covering is a totally (I'd argue insanely) uncontrolled environment. As one guy I know commented about that world "with many of the guys.... what they don't break, they steal". Some truth there.

Brain55 posted a while back about a bunch of new business he had picked up. The construction company owner was seriously pissed with the prior mechanic that he had been in good faith paying to maintain his equipment (specifically scheduled maintenance in this case). Conventional oils had been left in these machines, well beyond any sane change interval. So, as with cars, even owners who try and (do, in this case) pay for maintenance often get little/nothing done. Again, to be clear, I'm not saying that the conventional oil was not doing it's intended job - I recognize and agree that lack of actual (but intended, by the owner) maintenance was the trigger for this problem.

I thought Harry's example is a great one to illustrate the big picture value of synthetics. In extreme environments (which most hobby tractor users don't operate in), good synthetics buy you extended operating time, w/o any maintenance. TBN gearheads aside, many people today confuse Low Maintenance with No Maintenance. Harry raised a Behind the Big Curtain point about a deliberate business decision (that directly impacted the high value perception of how reliable their equipment was) that was implemented specifically to avoid opening up a gearcase to inferior lube. Again, in an extreme environment - ie. the world that synthetics were originally designed for.

An individual (me included) could argue that he worked for a big company that has lots of financial resources. Correct, but just because a resource is sitting there does not make it easy to utilize. Spanish Inquisitors could have probably learned a thing or 2 from the well funded private sector companies I've dealt with, when it came to increasing a part price a fraction of a cent. That move to synthetic would have been cost justified 16 ways from Sunday, before it was implemented within CAT.

Internet based oil discussions can often devolve into what I think of as oil-geek-holy-wars (a new Reality Show perhaps ? :laughing but it mostly comes down to.... just do the Scheduled (cuz it's called that for good reasons) Maintenance with approved lubricants (conventional or otherwise), and that's way better care than most machines consistently see.

Bonus points: understand your Service class (as you you guys obviously do), and adjust your maintenance and lube performance levels accordingly.

Personally, I use a lot of synthetics, but also conventionals too. I research my choices (in part, because I'm techically interested), and make an appropriate call on a given application. That approach seems to work well, for all the gearheads on here that do their own wrenching.

I'll hang out in discussions (like this one) where people are sharing data and experiences, but I just change channels when I hear foaming at the oil fill hole preaching going on.

Rgds, D.