Generators to support major operations

[3930dave]

I read about 2 situations in Ontario that have me scratching my head.

I'll sum up both, and link one (TO Star is playing money games for access). An urban hospital east of Toronto had a sub-optimal situation concerning generator support, and a farmer a little further east of there was whining about how slow his PUC was to restore power.

In the hospital's case, it made the news because of a baby delivered by flashlight, inside the hospital. You can make your own call as to whether or not the hospital administrator's story passes the sniff test. AFAIK, maternity wards are not located immediately inside the doors of Emergency.

How Paula Mbonda gave birth by flashlight as a treacherous ice storm raged outside a darkened hospital | National Post

In the case of the farmer near Oshawa, he was complaining to the media that he couldn't feed and water his $400k worth of cattle, because the PUC was dragging their heels repairing the downed lines.

In a large institution, with all the cost "optimizations" and outsourcing going on, I can envision something like generator maintenance falling through the cracks. Hate to say it, but even in a hospital.

But what's going on, down on the farm ? Saw the same thing here in '98 - sizeable farm live-stock operations, with no backup generator support.

I regard Farmers as one of the last bastions of what I've grown to call UNCommon Sense. Am I being naive, or am I just getting old and out of touch ? All of those, perhaps ? :laughing:

Rgds, D.

 

[rmorey]

I agree with you. I get that they (both) don't want to take the bottom line hit as either would require many thousands of dollars tied up in equipment cost, but the alternative (dead animals/dead children) is unspeakable.

 

[3930dave]

Total guess on my part, but I wouldn't be too surprised if the last gen I picked up (220v capable, 7kw continous) could drive the feed conveyor that farmer has. I paid less than $1,000 for that gen, 2 summers ago. I spent time shopping around, to find that deal, but still, List on that Gen is something like $1200.

The human race, overall, is pretty adaptable - part of why we took over the planet. An educated and knowledgable adult should be able to figure out how to safely get along w/o electricity. Not always the case today though, as shown by recent headlines.

While many animals will naturally have their own survival skills, when constrained by modern agriculture, they may not have any reasonable chance to survive w/o electricity being supplied.

Without debating the other aspects, I find just the business issue of putting hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of livestock at risk to be puzzling. Especially when you consider that say, 1% of that capital invested in a generator system would provide significant protection to the original investment.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm".....

Rgds, D.

 

[powerpace]

I read about 2 situations in Ontario that have me scratching my head.

I'll sum up both, and link one (TO Star is playing money games for access). An urban hospital east of Toronto had a sub-optimal situation concerning generator support, and a farmer a little further east of there was whining about how slow his PUC was to restore power.

In the hospital's case, it made the news because of a baby delivered by flashlight, inside the hospital. You can make your own call as to whether or not the hospital administrator's story passes the sniff test. AFAIK, maternity wards are not located immediately inside the doors of Emergency.

How Paula Mbonda gave birth by flashlight as a treacherous ice storm raged outside a darkened hospital | National Post

In the case of the farmer near Oshawa, he was complaining to the media that he couldn't feed and water his $400k worth of cattle, because the PUC was dragging their heels repairing the downed lines.

In a large institution, with all the cost "optimizations" and outsourcing going on, I can envision something like generator maintenance falling through the cracks. Hate to say it, but even in a hospital.

But what's going on, down on the farm ? Saw the same thing here in '98 - sizeable farm live-stock operations, with no backup generator support.

I regard Farmers as one of the last bastions of what I've grown to call UNCommon Sense. Am I being naive, or am I just getting old and out of touch ? All of those, perhaps ? :laughing:

Rgds, D.

As for the Rancher. No reason he should depend on the utility to provide power. Inclement weather and unforseen circumstances should be taken into account by any livestock owner. Animals kept in confinment are especially vulnerable to interuptions in feed, heat/cold and water disruptions.

As for the hospital there is no excuse. Maintenance including regular switching test to emergency power should be done at least monthly. Fuel has been known to sit in tanks too long. Testing for contamination and use of the fuel every year should be required.

 

[dave1949]

Who knows? I guess if you had the chance to sit down with the farmer and ask, he would have his reasons. Maybe he carries insurance, or maybe his margins are too tight to buy a generator as compared to something needed for everyday operations. If he is operating in debt, then it's even more difficult. That doesn't guarantee his reasons would make sense to someone else.

 

[zzvyb6]

Most farmers I know (including myself) have pto generators and plenty of tractors to drive it, even if only occasionally to run well(s), a grinder mixer, silo un-loader, milk house and lights. These are usually 3 phase capable machines. My WinPower 50kw has 3 phase and single phase taps for 240 and 120v feeds. We generally have a transfer switch on the local pole so that the whole farmstead has electricity.

So, I'm surprised that the farmer would have a 'beef'. A machine like I have can easily be had for under $3000. A serious farmer would commit a JD 4020 like machine to run it, with 500 to 1000 gal of on-hand diesel fuel to supply it.

Since Canadian government socialized medicine is taken for granted, there probably has been lost the care and consideration that one of the 3 little pigs that built the brick house had planned on. Sounds like the farmer's house was straw, too. Another example of a government snafu.

 

[3930dave]

As for the Rancher. No reason he should depend on the utility to provide power. Inclement weather and unforseen circumstances should be taken into account by any livestock owner. Animals kept in confinment are especially vulnerable to interuptions in feed, heat/cold and water disruptions.

As for the hospital there is no excuse. Maintenance including regular switching test to emergency power should be done at least monthly. Fuel has been known to sit in tanks too long. Testing for contamination and use of the fuel every year should be required.

I think if you took a reasonably bright 2'nd year (tech program) college student, and pointed them at the internet with the question "What maintenance practices do we need in place to ensure reliable diesel generator operation", they should have a pretty good idea within a morning's worth of reading. The science, and the skilled people needed to implement it are readily available - corporations today that are willing to employ those people full-time, and at more than minimum wage, not so much. IMO.

I'd like to be wrong about what I just typed, but having this situation show up at a hospital suggests not.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Who knows? I guess if you had the chance to sit down with the farmer and ask, he would have his reasons. Maybe he carries insurance, or maybe his margins are too tight to buy a generator as compared to something needed for everyday operations. If he is operating in debt, then it's even more difficult. That doesn't guarantee his reasons would make sense to someone else.

1) One of my favourite dialogs comes from the movie The Big Chill.

"Rationalization is more important than Sex".

"How so ?"

"Ever gone a week, without a good rationalization ?"

2) It would be interesting to know the list price of the pickup truck the farmer in the article drives.

But yes, Human Nature 201 certainly plays into this story.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Most farmers I know (including myself) have pto generators and plenty of tractors to drive it, even if only occasionally to run well(s), a grinder mixer, silo un-loader, milk house and lights. These are usually 3 phase capable machines. My WinPower 50kw has 3 phase and single phase taps for 240 and 120v feeds. We generally have a transfer switch on the local pole so that the whole farmstead has electricity.

So, I'm surprised that the farmer would have a 'beef'. A machine like I have can easily be had for under $3000. A serious farmer would commit a JD 4020 like machine to run it, with 500 to 1000 gal of on-hand diesel fuel to supply it.

Since Canadian government socialized medicine is taken for granted, there probably has been lost the care and consideration that one of the 3 little pigs that built the brick house had planned on. Sounds like the farmer's house was straw, too. Another example of a government snafu.

ZZ - that is what I'd expect to find, on a modern commercial (opposed to small hobby) farm today, either side of the border.

The relatives I have that are still farming don't handle livestock today, so I was beginning to wonder if I was getting out of touch with "modern" farm practices - thanks for the sanity check.

Like you said, doesn't take but $3k to put a large PTO gen in place. In a modern farm operation, that is only a rounding error, cost wise.

Rgds, D.

 

[Barry N]

I used to work at a hospital that received power through two power grids, with a massive diesel emergency generator on an auto-transfer, AND a natural gas fuel cell unit that could power the ORs and emergency lighting. It was not overkill, as both of the power grids failed together and the diesel genny was straining hard. That fuel cell saved the day. Of course, it was a private hospital...
I have a gasoline standby generator, tested monthly, and a much larger propane unit with auto-transfer setup. Last year I had none of that - but one learns, peace of mind is possible. My old hospital experience probably had something to do with that.