Series, parallel, or 1 large battery?

[aczlan]

And that is why when one cell goes bad, the battery is dead.

Also, if you have a weak cell, the good cells get overcharged to compensate for the bad one (as happens frequently with the banks of series 6v golf cart batteries, one weak battery will drag the whole pack down).

Aaron Z

 

[Tx Jim]

One important thing you can do to help starting is relocate the tractor negative battery cable from battery box to engine block or better yet starter mounting bolt.

 

[Texasmark]

I didn't read any of the replys but here's how it works. It takes about 10v at a 12v starter, while cranking, to get any kind of cranking performance. Depending upon the application, aka engine HP, that could mean anywhere from 100 to 200 amperes.

If you have a 12v worth of voltage pressure, let's use the more normal term for a fully charged battery at standard temperature and pressure, aka 12.75v.
If you need 10v at the starter you only have 2.75v worth of loss you can tolerate during cranking.

Taking the least case, 2.75 volts at 100 amperes equals a max of .0275 Ohms (electrical unit of resistance) in the starting circuit between the battery pos and neg terminals, including the batteries internal resistance, and the starter hot terminal and case which is where the battery - is connected. For the heavy duty application it's half that much resistance that's tolerable. In short, this means that you essentially can have no resistance in the circuit, aka battery internal resistance, small hookup wire, corroded crimp connections at the ends of the cables, corroded terminals, nuts, and washers at the termination points.....etc.

Having had experienced several of Mother Deere's engineering !@#$%^ (4010, 4020, and 4230C) where they put a 6v battery on one side of the tractor and another on the other side, connecting them in series, you were shot in the foot before you started with circuit resistance.

The internal resistance of two 12v batteries is half due to being in parallel where the seriesed 6 volt adds the internal resistance at 2x. Right off the bat parallel gives you a 400% advantage. Having adequate wiring in parallel, like a pair of 00 wires helps too.

My 4230 was a dog to start in the winter without ether which was a pain to introduce plus I didn't think it did the engine any good. I replaced the 6v on either side with the ground going through the engine block and a single 0 gauge wire under the cab, with a pair of HD 12v batteries (31 series OTR HD truck batteries) wired in parallel, one on each side where the OEM batteries were located with a pair of 00 wires across the tractor under the cab.

Ha! The sucker would start before you could realize it and get your fingers off the key.

HTH,
Mark

 

[SPYDERLK]

I didn't read any of the replys but here's how it works. It takes about 10v at a 12v starter, while cranking, to get any kind of cranking performance. Depending upon the application, aka engine HP, that could mean anywhere from 100 to 200 amperes.

If you have a 12v worth of voltage pressure, let's use the more normal term for a fully charged battery at standard temperature and pressure, aka 12.75v.
If you need 10v at the starter you only have 2.75v worth of loss you can tolerate during cranking.

Taking the least case, 2.75 volts at 100 amperes equals a max of .0275 Ohms (electrical unit of resistance) in the starting circuit between the battery pos and neg terminals, including the batteries internal resistance, and the starter hot terminal and case which is where the battery - is connected. For the heavy duty application it's half that much resistance that's tolerable. In short, this means that you essentially can have no resistance in the circuit, aka battery internal resistance, small hookup wire, corroded crimp connections at the ends of the cables, corroded terminals, nuts, and washers at the termination points.....etc.

Having had experienced several of Mother Deere's engineering !@#$%^ (4010, 4020, and 4230C) where they put a 6v battery on one side of the tractor and another on the other side, connecting them in series, you were shot in the foot before you started with circuit resistance.

The internal resistance of two 12v batteries is half due to being in parallel where the seriesed 6 volt adds the internal resistance at 2x. Right off the bat parallel gives you a 400% advantage. Having adequate wiring in parallel, like a pair of 00 wires helps too.

My 4230 was a dog to start in the winter without ether which was a pain to introduce plus I didn't think it did the engine any good. I replaced the 6v on either side with the ground going through the engine block and a single 0 gauge wire under the cab, with a pair of HD 12v batteries (31 series OTR HD truck batteries) wired in parallel, one on each side where the OEM batteries were located with a pair of 00 wires across the tractor under the cab.

Ha! The sucker would start before you could realize it and get your fingers off the key.

HTH,
Mark

Connections and wire size is very important as you say.

... But the internal resistance of a 6V battery that is the same size as a 12V is only 1/4 that of the 12V because theres twice the plate area per cell and only half as many cells. The // 12V pair would present no current sourcing advantage and has the inherent disadvantage of the weaker batt discharging the pair when the tractor is parked.
larry

 

[nc redneck]

I made the mistake of not buying Interstate batteries 2 years ago. Heard they had been bought out by Chinese company no longer any difference. Instead I bought the best " gold " ones at big brand parts stores. I ended up replacing most of them in 2 to 3 years. Biggest difference I had was with my Duramax. Last fall with 2 year old " Gold " batteries it was slow on spinning starter, knew in cold weather it would be a problem. I replaced Gold with Interstate and so far it still spins it over like a sewing machine. I will know for sure in a year or 2.
I doubt I saved $ 10.00 per battery buy buying " Gold "
Hope this helps.
Scott

 

[EricG1793]

I HIGHLY recommend a battery handle for setting batteries. I have one like this: Amazon.com: K-D Tools 205 Battery Carrying Strap: Home Improvement and its great for moving golf cart batteries.

Aaron Z

Interesting product, thanks for sharing. My only problem with it would be damaging the posts from using them to lift all that weight. Plus, the 4DLT has both posts on the same side as the battery, so it'd be useless anyway.

 

[aczlan]

Interesting product, thanks for sharing. My only problem with it would be damaging the posts from using them to lift all that weight. Plus, the 4DLT has both posts on the same side as the battery, so it'd be useless anyway.

True. They also make a clamp on version that clamps onto the top of the battery:
Amazon.com: EZ RED S520 Side Lifter: Home Improvement
Battery Carrier - Drill Bits - Amazon.com

Aaron Z

 

[Texasmark]

Connections and wire size is very important as you say.

... But the internal resistance of a 6V battery that is the same size as a 12V is only 1/4 that of the 12V because theres twice the plate area per cell and only half as many cells. The // 12V pair would present no current sourcing advantage and has the inherent disadvantage of the weaker batt discharging the pair when the tractor is parked.
larry

Good point on your resistance assessment and I don't disagree. My point was given as a matter of circuit connection of a series resistive circuit vs a parallel. I do have a battery load tester and can determine the internal resistance but currently have no usable 6v batteries for a comparison.

However, whatever the internal resistance, having one battery adjacent to the starter with 12" 00 wire hot and cold tied directly to the starter with the backup essentially sitting next to it certainly made a difference for me.

On the discharge comment, can't dis agree with that either, but there are other variables to consider in my opinion before this would be an issue.
-----------------
On one large battery, for reference the 31 is roughly a 27, like trolling motor batteries usually used but with 3/8" stud terminals centered at the ends. The batteries I bought were HD for high vibration environments and at $57 each, nobody in town could touch the deal; the OTR truck dealer bought them by the skid and apparently got a great price.

Now here is the kicker; was for me anyway. I bought a 4010D (roughly 70 or so hp, 6 cyl) once that had been thoroughly gone through in the not too distant past, so the guy said. You could see his red RTV sealing remnants in numerous places on the machine and it worked just fine. Don't know/remember if an engine OH was part of it. He had one battery and it was a size 27 trolling motor battery, not combo but straight TM. It was apparent that he had used it for several years. I continued to use it for a couple more although winter starting was sluggish.

We're told that TM batteries have too much internal resistance, too few fat plates with insufficient surface area (as you mentioned) to tolerate multiple deep cycles, to be effective at high current levels like are required to start a 4010D in the winter. Well it was an Excide, if that makes any difference and it did. So much for that hearsay.

Mark

 

[SPYDERLK]

Now here is the kicker; was for me anyway. I bought a 4010D (roughly 70 or so hp, 6 cyl) once that had been thoroughly gone through in the not too distant past, so the guy said. You could see his red RTV sealing remnants in numerous places on the machine and it worked just fine. Don't know/remember if an engine OH was part of it. He had one battery and it was a size 27 trolling motor battery, not combo but straight TM. It was apparent that he had used it for several years. I continued to use it for a couple more although winter starting was sluggish.

We're told that TM batteries have too much internal resistance, too few fat plates with insufficient surface area (as you mentioned) to tolerate multiple deep cycles, to be effective at high current levels like are required to start a 4010D in the winter. Well it was an Excide, if that makes any difference and it did. So much for that hearsay.

Mark

Yeah, Iv gone away from deep cycle batts. Their cranking amps and CCA are both down from hi performance shallower cycle batt. An engine in good shape should start quick. A good hard electrical kick of several hundred amps is what you need for the cold starts. Needing more than 5 seconds is excessive. but easily supportable by a 800CCA batt.
larry

 

[EricG1793]

Sorry for the extremely overdue follow-up guys, but here it is, at least for the sake of anyone else trying to get info from this in the future. And thank you again to everyone who gave their $0.02!

We ended up getting one large 12V battery, a 4D type, Napa Commercial. My dad and I each looped a ratchet strap around one side of the battery and lowered it in by hand. I've been happy with it.

I started the tractor yesterday when it was 33*F with no block heater or starting fluid and it did fine. Normally we always plug it in when it's below 40 or so, but I wanted to see what it could do. Here's a video. Skip to 3:33 for the actual start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOUcdV_glkM