Welding 3/16" & 1/4" with 120v wire-feed

[dragoneggs]

Getting back to this again, I'll repeat what I said before to an extent, but since the thread has circled back that way...

Most transformer MIGs rated at 140/135 amps are only theoretical numbers. Really, they are about 90 amps, slightly higher in "spurts"...duty cycle is rated at 90 amps on most, and it's pitifully low...Most people running a 140A mig run past this limit and are running wide open with ne'er a duty cycle issue, so something is wanky there. Put a gauge on it, and you'll see for yourself the output doesn't match up.

In real life, most people would consider a 1/8" rod and 140 amps sufficient to tackle most ordinary welding jobs...but not something a professional would want to limit himself to everyday. IF the little transformer migs were truly capable of that, then it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Enter inverter Migs...which put out more true amps and a higher duty cycle. These do bring the performance and capability up, but still a true 140 amps can be right on the cusp of requirements to make a satisfactory weld on thicker material with .035 wire. As I said, I'll be doing a MIG video with one of our new 140 amp inverters and hopefully be able to demonstrate the differences in capability.

Almost all migs are rated on a basis of a multi pass situation. A 1/4" rating doesn't mean a single 1/4" pass weld...that's where people get confused. And blame marketers at the big boys for this. No one in their right mind has any business trying to butt weld a 1/4" plate with a 140 amp transformer MIG. You can make edge welds, fillet welds etc, but a 100% penetration 1/4" weld in a single pass is hard to do with 200 amps.

Thanks Mark, for a very informative post!

 

[Sodo]

Ya know Mark, if you had time to answer every post I think this welding forum might not bloat as bad.

I just looked at my Kubota B2710 FEL structure and bucket (LA402, capacity 900lbs). It's 3/16" thick, with 1/4" thick attach points, and the cutter on the corner is 3/8". Possible the cutting edge is 3/8? I highly doubt more than 5% of the posters (who have concluded or been told they need a 220v machine) will ever weld anything as significant as the FEL on my little tractor.

Very very few will even come close to using that capacity which they think is required. Some will, but probably very very few. Most of these welders will gather as much dust as the 120v MIGs where the owner bought into the horsepucky on TBN and failed to start projects, and learn how to weld. Even fewer will understand WHICH of the connections might even benefit from 220v and which make no difference.

I just looked at my car trailer (1600 lbs, 5400 capacity) and could not find material thicker than 1/4" (except for the root of the 5" channel flanges). I did not see any 1/4" butt welds but I did see some fillets which could be pushing it (for a 120v MIG) because they were out in the middle of a large heat sink and the weld was short. This trailer goes down the road with my 3700lb mini-excavator on it, and I could have done better on many of the welds with my 120v MIG. For the record if I were to build this trailer I would use 220v.

I posted a project with .065" and 1/8" material This is THIN STUFF. Yet still the thread bloated with pages and pages of inane comments. Even though a 220v MIG would be operated at the same wire speed & voltage on this project, a detail that some folks seem unaware of.

There must be a "manhood issue", or some other boost that the welding forum becomes an outlet for. I'm surprised how pervasive this problem is. Maybe because of the word penetration? :laughing: :laughing: Maybe I shouldn't be so surprised. Sorry Bros, I understand, this is the new, more compassionate Sodo.

Anyway, I'll post a few more 120v MIG projects with pics, and simple explanations, so that users can see an opportunity, hopefully be inspired. Then the folks who need their little 'boost' can go on & bloat the thread as their 'issues' demand. TBN gets paid more from the advertisers with active (friendly) disputes, but I bet TBN also prefers the forum to be a google-able source of useful and credible information that people can use. I'll try to make the top post google-able, with decent pics and subject, then let the trolls have at it down the page as they feel they must.

 

[dragoneggs]

Yeah, one question I have (only because I haven't had the chance to prove it myself) is whether one would get the identical output using 110 vs 230v input using the same settings. I am working with a Miller 211 MIG. Shield Arc and I played with it at 230V and max'd it out and got good results up to 3/4in thick!!! What I haven't done is see if on thinner gauge (3/16in or less) whether the input voltage requires different output settings. The answer I think is no, but haven't proved it yet.

 

[MinnesotaDaveChalmers]

Sodo-

I buy welders based on the duty cycle being high where I weld most often - that way I don't wait on duty cycle.
My millermatic 210 is perfect and welds nonstop where my 120v mig gives up after couple minutes.

If I need more than that I've got high quality stick welders that won't make me wait either.
It's not about max power for me, it's about welding as long as I want to until I'm done.
I'm too impatient to do it any other way - found that out years ago with the little mig.

 

[Todd NE WY]

I just looked at my Kubota B2710 FEL structure and bucket (LA402, capacity 900lbs). It's 3/16" thick, with 1/4" thick attach points, and the cutter on the corner is 3/8". Possible the cutting edge is 3/8? I highly doubt more than 5% of the posters (who have concluded or been told they need a 220v machine) will ever weld anything as significant as the FEL on my little tractor.

Sodo,

I don't know what fabrication you have done but I have built a loader for a garden tractor. I would not have even thought of attempting that without a 220 v machine. You can talk about welding on loaders and trailers but in all reality if a 120 v mig welder was all that was needed don't you think thats what the shops would have. They are looking strictly at the bottom line so if they could get by with less they would.

 

[Sodo]

You can talk about welding on loaders and trailers but in all reality if a 120 v mig welder was all that was needed don't you think thats what the shops would have. They are looking strictly at the bottom line so if they could get by with less they would.

I doubt that. That would be a false economy for a commercial operation that welds 1/4". Any company building trailers for sale already knows better. For any commercial operation that welds a little every day or week or month (not all day!) and honestly tops out at 3/16" I bet a 120v MIG is a viable machine that could be good for the bottom line.

120v MIG welders are attractive because they can do a LOT for people who don't have 220v available. Or because they don't often weld thicker than 1/4", or the user knows enough to accommodate thicker than 1/4" (because it's seldom). And for the portability and store-ability. And to save a few bucks.

For most 120v users, I bet their voltage supply and how much $$ committed; are the deciding factors. For some people, getting 220v would cost as much as the welder. For me, I have to get 220v at three different locations, which would be ludicrous, given that I have learned (over 20 years) that it's unnecessary for my projects which are almost always under 3/16 and occasionally 1/4" and very seldom any thicker than 1/4".

 

[Arc weld]

You do realize that for the same setting a 220 volt machine is going to use less input amps and save you money? How can you talk about saving money buying a 120 volt welder when you paid $2000 for your machine that is a dual voltage machine. You have to stop this charade already. It's getting really old, really fast!:mur:

 

[dragoneggs]

You do realize that for the same setting a 220 volt machine is going to use less input amps and save you money? How can you talk about saving money buying a 120 volt welder when you paid $2000 for your machine that is a dual voltage machine. You have to stop this charade already. It's getting really old, really fast!:mur:

Arc, I am not choosing sides here but please entertain an honest question. My 110/230 welder gives me some flexibility for sure but are you saying I would save money (power bill) running on 230v?

 

[Arc weld]

YES! Why do you think the large fab shops run 575 volts? Why are overhead power lines higher voltage? It's more efficient. It won't make a lot of difference for lighter use but consider to run a 120 volt machine at max., you need a 20 amp breaker? Inverter based machines are very efficient as well. I worked in a large shop that switched out 14 3 phase transformer machines for Miller XMT 304's. Pretty hefty upgrade cost. They were saving about $1000/month per machine. I think they paid for the machines and the wire feeders in less than 3 month's!

 

[Reverser]

YES! Why do you think the large fab shops run 575 volts? Why are overhead power lines higher voltage? It's more efficient. It won't make a lot of difference for lighter use but consider to run a 120 volt machine at max., you need a 20 amp breaker? Inverter based machines are very efficient as well. I worked in a large shop that switched out 14 3 phase transformer machines for Miller XMT 304's. Pretty hefty upgrade cost. They were saving about $1000/month per machine. I think they paid for the machines and the wire feeders in less than 3 month's!

All that is irrelevant in Sodo's case. The cost difference between running 240 and 120 probably wouldn't give him an extra 2 nickels to rub together. :2cents: