Welding 3/16" & 1/4" with 120v wire-feed

PoorPlowboy · Jun 25, 2014

Arc weld said:
You do realize that for the same setting a 220 volt machine is going to use less input amps and save you money? How can you talk about saving money buying a 120 volt welder when you paid $2000 for your machine that is a dual voltage machine. You have to stop this charade already. It's getting really old, really fast!:mur:

Electricity is sold by watts. Specifically kilowatt hours. 240v at 10 amps is the same number of watts as 120v at 20 amps. Where you may save some energy is that a more expensive machines may be more thermally efficient, but watt for watt cost the same in purchased power to run.

MinnesotaDaveChalmers · Jun 25, 2014

dragoneggs said:
Arc, I am not choosing sides here but please entertain an honest question. My 110/230 welder gives me some flexibility for sure but are you saying I would save money (power bill) running on 230v?

I would say it depends.
Let's say for 120/240 the input amperage was 50 amps on 120v and 25 amps on 240v.
(Fictitious example with perfect half amps at 240v)

50 amps x 120v = 6000 watts (or 6Kw)
25 amps x 240v = 6000 watts (or 6Kw)

As a result the price for power consumption would be the same.

But, if the amps required at 240v is less than half of the 120v requirement, a few pennies would be saved.
In the heavy industrial example Arc Weld listed, many $$ saved.

Only my opinion in my limited understanding.

Edit: poorplowboy types faster

dragoneggs · Jun 25, 2014

MinnesotaDaveChalmers said:
I would say it depends.
Let's say for 120/240 the input amperage was 50 amps on 120v and 25 amps on 240v.
(Fictitious example with perfect half amps at 240v)

50 amps x 120v = 6000 watts (or 6Kw)
25 amps x 240v = 6000 watts (or 6Kw)

As a result the price for power consumption would be the same.

But, if the amps required at 240v is less than half of the 120v requirement, a few pennies would be saved.
In the heavy industrial example Arc Weld listed, many $$ saved.

Only my opinion in my limited understanding.

Edit: poorplowboy types faster

Pretty much where I was going with this... for the average dude on his own, it doesn't make a hill of beans. Now if you are running a shop maybe there is some efficiency to be gained. And god knows, I am not summarily arguing for 110v but appreciate what you have. Those that have strap a few batteries together know this too well.

There is a cost to go 230V and my old shop I was there. My new shop is still jerry-rigged for 230v (old dryer outlet with a modified extension cord from costco). Not proud, but until I get it right, it powers my tablesaw, air compressor, and welder.

There is a definite need to understand the limits of 110v with respect to MIG welding. I will probably drop $500 to a grand easily to get proper 230v to my shop. Not chump change in my book.

mikehaugen · Jun 25, 2014

It's true that using a higher voltage and lower amps will technically be more efficient, as line loss will be slightly lower. The problem is with residential power, 240 is simply 2 120v lines phased 180 degrees apart so the line-line voltage is 240. You are still just running 2-120v lines and will get the same line loss.

Even if you had a hypothetical 240v line and a neutral, vs a 120v line and neutral, the difference would be so dismal for any home welder that it really isn't even a consideration. If you were a three shift manufacturing plant, then it would be noticeable.

Sodo · Jun 25, 2014

Arc weld said:
You do realize that for the same setting a 220 volt machine is going to use less input amps and save you money? How can you talk about saving money buying a 120 volt welder when you paid $2000 for your machine that is a dual voltage machine. You have to stop this charade already. It's getting really old, really fast!:mur:

Whoa.

Arc weld said:
YES! Why do you think the large fab shops run 575 volts? Why are overhead power lines higher voltage? It's more efficient. It won't make a lot of difference for lighter use but consider to run a 120 volt machine at max., you need a 20 amp breaker? Inverter based machines are very efficient as well. I worked in a large shop that switched out 14 3 phase transformer machines for Miller XMT 304's. Pretty hefty upgrade cost. They were saving about $1000/month per machine. I think they paid for the machines and the wire feeders in less than 3 month's!

You OK bro?

MinnesotaDaveChalmers · Jun 25, 2014

dragoneggs said:
Pretty much where I was going with this... for the average dude on his own, it doesn't make a hill of beans. Now if you are running a shop maybe there is some efficiency to be gained. And god knows, I am not summarily arguing for 110v but appreciate what you have. Those that have strap a few batteries together know this too well.

There is a cost to go 230V and my old shop I was there. My new shop is still jerry-rigged for 230v (old dryer outlet with a modified extension cord from costco). Not proud, but until I get it right, it powers my tablesaw, air compressor, and welder.

There is a definite need to understand the limits of 110v with respect to MIG welding. I will probably drop $500 to a grand easily to get proper 230v to my shop. Not chump change in my book.

Yeah, power upgrades are crazy expensive. My shop is running out of power with only 100 amps coming in.
My tig beast and my plasma cutter are serious power hogs. The plasma pulls 70 amps wide open, the lights about 20 amps, compressor about 27 amps....that don't add up to 100...

So my options are to make sure the compresser doesn't turn on while plasma cutting on high, or bring in more power. Priced that out and running 200 amps cable and panel will be around $1000.
Like you said, that ain't chump change...ugh.

Or I could drop even more money to get inverter based equipment - that certainly won't happen...

haveissues · Jun 25, 2014

MinnesotaDaveChalmers said:
Yeah, power upgrades are crazy expensive. My shop is running out of power with only 100 amps coming in.
My tig beast and my plasma cutter are serious power hogs. The plasma pulls 70 amps wide open, the lights about 20 amps, compressor about 27 amps....that don't add up to 100...

So my options are to make sure the compresser doesn't turn on while plasma cutting on high, or bring in more power. Priced that out and running 200 amps cable and panel will be around $1000.
Like you said, that ain't chump change...ugh.

Or I could drop even more money to get inverter based equipment - that certainly won't happen...

I'm guessing making sure the compressor not turning on while cutting is going to be tough. Are you sure your feed wires are sized for 100 amps? A lot of times the wires coming in are fine for 200 amps but the panel is a 100 amp panel. I know it is that way in my shop.

MinnesotaDaveChalmers · Jun 25, 2014

haveissues said:
I'm guessing making sure the compressor not turning on while cutting is going to be tough. Are you sure your feed wires are sized for 100 amps? A lot of times the wires coming in are fine for 200 amps but the panel is a 100 amp panel. I know it is that way in my shop.

Man that would be awesome! Sadly in this case they are the standard 100 amp aluminum cables and have been there since the 70's or 80's.

It used to be a milking barn before I refit the building into my shop. Saved about $2500 at the time over building new.

Sodo · Jun 25, 2014

dragoneggs said:
And god knows, I am not summarily arguing for 110v but appreciate what you have. Those that have strap a few batteries together know this too well.

There is a cost to go 230V and my old shop I was there. My new shop is still jerry-rigged for 230v (old dryer outlet with a modified extension cord from costco). Not proud, but until I get it right, it powers my tablesaw, air compressor, and welder.

There is a definite need to understand the limits of 110v with respect to MIG welding. I will probably drop $500 to a grand easily to get proper 230v to my shop. Not chump change in my book.

I've been trying to say (or show examples that) 120v MIGs are a good entry point for members who want to get into welding. You buy the machine, go home, plug it in, start learning, start small projects. Pretty quickly, you can start making nice looking welds with a MIG. Your stick-welding friends (if newbies) will be amazed, and in some cases, resentful of the ease. The 3/16" 'limit' is thick enough material to make a lot of useful stuff. And the instant gratification you can get with a MIG will increase your satisfaction and motivation, to take on projects.

Dragoneggs brings up a good point here, without summarily arguing for 110v (as god knows). The capability to weld thicker than 3/16" is only available for those who have 220v in their shop, or can spare the change to add 220v, or can D.I.Y. As I wildly guessed earlier, to add 220v to your welding area, your welding budget must accommodate $500 (?) for a single 220v outlet, or thou$ands if a panel must be upgraded.

The rest of the folks, can buy a (good brand) 120v MIG and can jump into welding. 3/16" is plenty thick to learn stuff. The bucket and entire FEL on my B2710 is made of 3/16" and 1/4" with a little bit of 3/8, so just imagine that project as a far upper limit, consequently there are years of smaller projects that can be done and done WELL. Then you can stretch it up to 1/4" if willing to learn "techniques" and if anybody is willing to post them.

Currently there seems to be a gag-order on helping anybody to use a 120v MIG, so it might be awhile but I'm trying to wear these guys down. They WANT to help, but can't seem to get over (under) that "120v problem" at the moment.

aczlan · Jun 25, 2014

Sodo said:
Currently there seems to be a gag-order on helping anybody to use a 120v MIG, so it might be awhile but I'm trying to wear these guys down. They WANT to help, but can't seem to get over (under) that "120v problem" at the moment.

The problem is that you are being disagreeable and looking for ways to argue. A weld that needs more heat or a different technique looks the same no matter if it was done with a 120v mig, or a 3 phase 300 amp MIG welder.
I built my RTV trailer with a 120v mig and had nothing but helpful suggestions: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/welding/270953-trailer-build-my-first-real.html
From the latest addition to the trailer, 3/16" plate to a 3/16" tube. Weld was made with a Millermatic 211 running 75/25 gas on 120v with .030 wire (IIRC):