So much for a Nissan Leaf!

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   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #781  
Looks like a 25 to 50% loss of battery life. In a nissan leaf, this puts you into the 50 mile or less range from what I understand. If you have a Tesla, which has a much beefier battery your range is much more, but still depleted.

I read an article that said the greater concern for EV drivers in the severe cold was not the reduced range but the loss of power when charging. Apparently the grid is lost quite frequently in those cold storms.

But that all being said, Doesn't -25C gel diesel? Then I realized you wrote C, no F. What first world cities get -25C on a regular basis? Just asking.

Being a greenie I guess (well, earth conscious maybe?) I am less concerned about cars and the polution. New gas engines are really dropping the emission levels to next to nothing. And as I noted before the diesel electric might just be the stop gap for new car manufacturing until someone truly makes a decent battery.

I think power generation is the real issue now. Coal has got to go. Same with Fracking. But also, the US has to get tough on other countries that don't step up to the clean air plate and by that virtue can produce product at a much lower rate.
"Looks like a 25 to 50% loss of battery life"

I presume you mean "decrease in range". Battery life is related to how many times it can be charged, not how far a single charge will get you.
The drop is a combination of using more electricity (heater use, higher rolling resistance of winter tires, driving through snow) and battery "capacity" at cold temperatures.

"What first world cities get -25C on a regular basis? Just asking. "
You are kidding right? -25C is only -13F. Barely cold enough for snow to squeak when you walk on it. LOTS of the USA regularly gets that cold (and much colder) Dec through Feb. Regular #2 diesel will start to gel around 32F. The distributors fix that for you by adding kerosene. LOTS of kerosene when it is REALLY cold :)

ALL vehicles suffer lower MPG (and therefore range) in cold weather. You will see that if you regularly (as in EVERY fill) track your miles driven/gallons added to fill (and ALWAYS fill). Thing is, a 10% to 20% drop in a 20 MPG vehicle is not nearly as noticeable (as a number) as a 10% - 20% drop in a 50 MPG vehicle. You drop 4 MPG, I drop 10 MPG. Similarly, running snow tires will bring down the MPG of ANY vehicle as will A/C; heat brings it down in hybrids and EVs. You can preheat a Leaf's cabin while it is plugged in at home though that will only get you so far before the onboard heat has to kick in.

With regard to loss of power during storms, yes that is a problem in some areas. We have 2 electric companies on our 2.5 mile long road. The end with one company lost power several times last winter, our end never did. Go figure. But that is something to consider. People who lose power frequently probably have a generator. If they decide on an EV, I guess they need a bigger generator to handle the outages unless they don't need to go anywhere.
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #782  
My experience with people in the Bay Area is they can't afford much of anything, it's all they can do to get into a home. The Bay Area you are portraying ended in the late 1990's, those that didn't leave then got stuck and had to stay. It's sad place, a bunch of people talking home prices and planning their escape. HS

For anyone who is not afraid of facts:
SF is not exactly a cell of poverty.
California locations by income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2011
SF average income $46,777 median household $87,329
State average income $29,634 median household $70,231
US median Household $50,502
http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/acsbr11-02.pdf

Bay Area is one of the least affordable rental markets in the nation - On The Block

Sounds to me like high demand and a good reason to commute.
I would guess that many of these EV owners are commuting up to 50 miles and charging at work when possible.

Loren
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #783  
For anyone who is not afraid of facts: SF is not exactly a cell of poverty. California locations by income - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 2011 SF average income $46,777 median household $87,329 State average income $29,634 median household $70,231 US median Household $50,502 http://www.census.gov/prod/2012pubs/acsbr11-02.pdf Bay Area is one of the least affordable rental markets in the nation - On The Block Sounds to me like high demand and a good reason to commute. I would guess that many of these EV owners are commuting up to 50 miles and charging at work when possible. Loren
You make my point for me, try to buy a $600,000 dollar home on that money. Oh, by the way that 600k will buy a fixer upper and might be under 1000sqft. Yeah, commute where the company pays for your fuel home, your lunch, sounds like the company store towns of the turn of the last century to me. LOL. HS
 
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   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #784  
Why do people in Wa state think that coal is evil? The technologies are there to clean it at the stack. Geez, :confused3:
Since you are lumping us all together, nothing wrong with power generation using coal if they would apply the technology to existing stacks and digging it up didn't level mountains and fill in valleys. I have relatives and friends that live back east where the effects of coal extraction has been going on for years.
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #785  
Since you are lumping us all together, nothing wrong with power generation using coal if they would apply the technology to existing stacks and digging it up didn't level mountains and fill in valleys. I have relatives and friends that live back east where the effects of coal extraction has been going on for years.
Democrats won't allow the modernization of coal plants, they are not interested in clean coal power generation. HS
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #786  
Since you are lumping us all together, nothing wrong with power generation using coal if they would apply the technology to existing stacks and digging it up didn't level mountains and fill in valleys. I have relatives and friends that live back east where the effects of coal extraction has been going on for years.

Agreed. Apply the technologies to the stacks. That's not the message Washington state sends. It does everything possible to prohibit coal transportation thus coal as an energy source.

I've toured many mountain mining operations in the Virginias during my mining career. In most cases, terrain that was too steep to farm or even build on was transformed into places where commerce and communities can be built. Here in the west, land that was overrun with sagebrush was reformed into grasslands. There are positive solutions out there to your concerns.
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #787  
Agreed. Apply the technologies to the stacks. That's not the message Washington state sends. It does everything possible to prohibit coal transportation thus coal as an energy source.

I've toured many mountain mining operations in the Virginias during my mining career. In most cases, terrain that was too steep to farm or even build on was transformed into places where commerce and communities can be built. Here in the west, land that was overrun with sagebrush was reformed into grasslands. There are positive solutions out there to your concerns.

How Coal Works | Union of Concerned Scientists

A Case Study: The Side Effects of a Coal Plant
A 500 megawatt coal plant produces 3.5 billion kilowatt-hours per year, enough to power a city of about 140,000 people. It burns 1,430,000 tons of coal, uses 2.2 billion gallons of water and 146,000 tons of limestone.

It also puts out, each year:

10,000 tons of sulfur dioxide. Sulfur dioxide (SOx) is the main cause of acid rain, which damages forests, lakes and buildings.

10,200 tons of nitrogen oxide. Nitrogen oxide (NOx) is a major cause of smog, and also a cause of acid rain.

3.7 million tons of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is the main greenhouse gas, and is the leading cause of global warming. There are no regulations limiting carbon dioxide emissions in the U.S.

500 tons of small particles. Small particulates are a health hazard, causing lung damage. Particulates smaller than 10 microns are not regulated, but may be soon.

220 tons of hydrocarbons. Fossil fuels are made of hydrocarbons; when they don't burn completely, they are released into the air. They are a cause of smog.

720 tons of carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide (CO) is a poisonous gas and contributor to global warming.

125,000 tons of ash and 193,000 tons of sludge from the smokestack scrubber. A scrubber uses powdered limestone and water to remove pollution from the plant's exhaust. Instead of going into the air, the pollution goes into a landfill or into products like concrete and drywall. This ash and sludge consists of coal ash, limestone, and many pollutants, such as toxic metals like lead and mercury.

225 pounds of arsenic, 114 pounds of lead, 4 pounds of cadmium, and many other toxic heavy metals. Mercury emissions from coal plants are suspected of contaminating lakes and rivers in northern and northeast states and Canada. In Wisconsin alone, more than 200 lakes and rivers are contaminated with mercury. Health officials warn against eating fish caught in these waters, since mercury can cause birth defects, brain damage and other ailments. Acid rain also causes mercury poisoning by leaching mercury from rocks and making it available in a form that can be taken up by organisms.

Trace elements of uranium. All but 16 of the 92 naturally occurring elements have been detected in coal, mostly as trace elements below 0.1 percent (1,000 parts per million, or ppm). A study by DOE's Oak Ridge National Lab found that radioactive emissions from coal combustion are greater than those from nuclear power production.
The 2.2 billion gallons of water it uses for cooling is raised 16 degrees F on average before being discharged into a lake or river. By warming the water year-round it changes the habitat of that body of water.

Coal mining creates tons of hazardous and acidic waste which can contaminate ground water.

Despite all of these advanced techniques, it may never be possible to produce energy from coal without carbon emissions. Most of the heat produced from coal is generated from carbon, which provides more than 70 percent of the energy content. Since there is so much coal in the world, and the cost of extracting it is so low, it will take a concerted effort to avoid massive carbon emissions. More efficient use is a start, but replacing coal with renewables is the ultimate solution to the environmental impacts of coal.
--------
Majority of scientists agree that carbon emissions are a problem.
Loren
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #788  
My experience with people in the Bay Area is they can't afford much of anything, it's all they can do to get into a home. The Bay Area you are portraying ended in the late 1990's, those that didn't leave then got stuck and had to stay. It's sad place, a bunch of people talking home prices and planning their escape. HS
And how much "experience" do you have with people in the Bay Area? There are ~7.5 MILLION of them. You are saying they are all (or even a minimal majority) in a sad place trying to figure a way to "escape"? There are PLENTY of people there with PLENTY of money to buy a cheap Leaf or a $100K Tesla Model S. In fact, the only Tesla Model S I have seen in person was picking someone up at the S.F. airport, January 2013.

I find your black and white generalizations uninformed and of little value.
Everyone in the Bay Area is in a sad place trying to escape.
There is no reason anyone should or would want an EV.

I hope anything you post in tractor related fora is based on knowledge.

The averages and medians Loren posted apply to every area of the country. There are the very rich, the very poor and everything in between. The poor and "average" income people in the Bay Area aren't buying the $600K+ houses any more than they are buying the more expensive houses in other areas. But there are plenty of Bay Area condos and houses in the $200K to $400K range according to Zillow. Will that kind of money buy a LOT more where you live? Quite possibly. But if everyone in a "sad place" where things are expensive moved to where things are cheap:
- Their new job would pay less
- The price of housing in those areas would go up - supply and demand. Sell your 1,161 sq ft Boston 2 bed/2 bath condo (*) for $695K and buy a 5,700 sq ft 5 bed/5 bath house on 1.5 acres in Montgomery, AL. (**) There are only 4 houses listed by Zillow in Montgomery that cost more. Or, let's say you have 50% equity in your Boston condo. BUY FOR CASH a 4,300 sq ft 5 bed/5 bath house on a half acre for $350K. (***)

According to Wikipedia:
Montgomery: The median income for a household in the city was $41,380, and the median income for a family was $53,125.
Boston: The median income for a household in the city was $51,739, and the median income for a family was $61,035.

The 2013 median sales price in Boston was ~$400K, $120K in Montgomery according to Trulia.

So it is fair to conclude that everyone in Boston is in a sad place looking for a way out. The median income is $10K more than Montgomery, the median house cost is $280K higher. Look out lower housing cost places, all the middle and upper income people from places where housing is expensive are sad and will soon be moving in. They will think the asking price that a local knows to be ridiculous is CHEAP!!!


(*) 6 Grove St UNIT 1, Boston, MA 02114 is For Sale - Zillow
(**) 3212 Thomas Ave, Montgomery, AL 36106 is For Sale - Zillow
(***) 2642 Aimee Dr, Montgomery, AL 36106 is For Sale - Zillow
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #789  
My experience with people in the Bay Area is they can't afford much of anything, it's all they can do to get into a home. The Bay Area you are portraying ended in the late 1990's, those that didn't leave then got stuck and had to stay. It's sad place, a bunch of people talking home prices and planning their escape. HS

I work at for a Hospital and on just about any given day have the oldest vehicle in the parking lot...

Doctors driving all electric is a growing segment... Leaf, Tesla and BMW all electric.

Staff has an increasing number of Toyota Prius with some other Toyota and Ford Hybrid in the mix.

The Doctors driving the all electrics are not hurting for money and most were driving Porsche and even 12 cylinder Mercedes and BMW's... so money isn't a factor.

As mentioned before... every all electric Doc has solar at home with charging station...

Of course the big prize is being able to drive carpool lanes with a one occupant to by-pass commute gridlock.
 
   / So much for a Nissan Leaf! #790  
You make my point for me, try to buy a $600,000 dollar home on that money. Oh, by the way that 600k will buy a fixer upper and might be under 1000sqft. Yeah, commute where the company pays for your fuel home, your lunch, sounds like the company store towns of the turn of the last century to me. LOL. HS

Here's a Bay Area home near BART to SF and Bay Area Airports...

Not cheap... then again it is affordable with Bay Area household income.


http://www.realtor.com/realestatean...liss-St_Bay-Point_CA_94565_M19558-30619?row=2
 
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