Hot water options

[tkappeler]

I have four poor choices for hot water: 1) our current setup of an 80 electric tank unit and watch the meter whiz rapidly, 2) Propane tank model at 3.19/gallon and the heating season has not begun yet or 3) 180K Btu tankless propane and would need to upgrade the piping from the current 3/4" gas line to 1" to the tee for the furnace and 4) geothermal to handle heat and A/C and hot water but at about 15K before credits, it's not an immediate option.

In Sept, with no heating or A/C, our average daily electric usage was 30Kw/hr which seems high. Certainly the $180 seems high. I am looking at my options

None of the options are really great.

Starting looking into solar hot water also. Anyone built their own solar hot water setup? I saw several DIY setups that ran about 1K-3K. Advice on all of the above?

 

[WayneB]

A few years back I decided to go with On Demand Hot Water and installed a Bosch system here. We have kept pretty good records on the system and propane use and we are averaging $12.00 a month for all of our hot water needs. What we use for hot water is three people taking daily showers and we also run the dishwasher typically everyday. We do all clothes washing via cold water. Not known what kind of heating system you have I am assuming that it is forced hot air. But, known that the hot water system is only drawing propane when there is actual a call for hot water I guess I am not sure why you would have to up grade the input line to 1”, but what do I know??

There is some installation cost to installing an ODHW system mainly with the exhaust system which requires an insulated pipe and outside termination. I would think this would be a much better solution than the electric hot water tank that you presently are using? There are downsides to ODHW for sure, one being the wait for the hot water to reach the far out points of you house. We found that the wait for hot water to the shower (it is approximately 32 feet from the hot water source) will take approximately 35 seconds to get there. This is due mainly to the amount of cold water in the plumbing to that point and the heat up time of the unit it self.

We also had a problem with my wife rinsing dishes at the sink turning on and off the hot water. This created a situation where the unit kicks on and then shuts off, problem is every time the unit shuts off it has to go through an exhausting of any gases in the unit to before it will fire up again. To prevents this I added a small 2.5 gallon electric heater in line so she no longer has the cold water shot! There is a learning cycle on how to use ODHW but it has been cheaper for us to operate and once the hot water arrives at the shower head one could take a shower for as long as desired and never run out of hot water.

I installed the first system at our camp in the mountains with the main reason being the ease of winterizing the system. I got sick of dumping the 50 gallons of hot water in the fall when we shutdown the camp. There was also the times during the spring and summer when we would be away front he camp for over a weeks time and I would forget to shut off the fedd to the hot water tank and we would heat water during that time period. So I installed a Bosch system there minty because the North American distribution was out of Vermont and the people there were extremely helpful when ordering the system and afterwards with a few problems ( I created). I soon found out it was really the way to go with a camp and we always had hot water without having to wait for it to warm up once we got there and never having to worry about did I turn off the gas when we left.

Turned out to be a win win situation for us. Oh and closing down the camp plus really a great situation. I can drain the entire system in less than 30 minutes now and do it with a two gallon water bucket to catch the water in the heater.

just my two cents.

Wayne

 

[IXLR8]

In Sept, with no heating or A/C, our average daily electric usage was 30Kw/hr which seems high. Certainly the $180 seems high. I am looking at my options

That daily electrical useage seems high... I would start by looking at that to see why it is so high and reduce that.
I had ReVision Energy install an 80 gal solar water heater w/electrical backup to replace the electric 50 gal tank. After rebates the installed system came to about $3200. The breaker for electrical backup is off from April to Nov as solar takes care of the entire load. It is sized for a family of 4 and there is only 2 of us at the moment. If I had to do it over, and I was staying in the house for more than 10 more years, I would just put up solar PV and keep the existing electric tank.

 

[dave1949]

30 kWh/day does seem a bit high. We average ~16 kWh/day without using the mini splits. We have an electric Rheem Marathon series water heater. But that's for two retired people, so you will reasonably use more no doubt. Is your tank well insulated, thermostat set to 120 degrees?

If you have the right space and NJ has a useful net metering situation then grid-tied solar electric coupled with electric appliances is about the best choice. There is never any system capacity waste from your perspective. Plus you get known, locked-in electric rates for the next 20 years or so. Solar pv has the highest up-front costs; you are basically pre-paying your electric bill for the next ~12-15 years (a reasonable pay back period).

On-demand water heaters are expensive to buy and tie you to fluctuating propane rates. They require more maintenance and are more costly to repair than a standard electric water heater. As mentioned, they are not as user friendly as a regular electric water heater either. Solar water heaters, pre-heaters, have more maintenance and are also more costly than electric.

 

[KTurner]

I have four poor choices for hot water: 1) our current setup of an 80 electric tank unit and watch the meter whiz rapidly, 2) Propane tank model at 3.19/gallon and the heating season has not begun yet or 3) 180K Btu tankless propane and would need to upgrade the piping from the current 3/4" gas line to 1" to the tee for the furnace and 4) geothermal to handle heat and A/C and hot water but at about 15K before credits, it's not an immediate option.

In Sept, with no heating or A/C, our average daily electric usage was 30Kw/hr which seems high. Certainly the $180 seems high. I am looking at my options

None of the options are really great.

Starting looking into solar hot water also. Anyone built their own solar hot water setup? I saw several DIY setups that ran about 1K-3K. Advice on all of the above?

If you're able, take some measurements of your current system. Then you can make some informed decisions. Anything short of that is a generalization and/or a guess. Figure how much electricity is used, what the costs are.. then look at your alternatives and calculate how much each would cost to do the same, how long it'd take to break even on the investment, if you have enough solar for a solar to work, etc. You can put a meter on your water heater line or hook a 220v clock across the terminals of the heater elements to determine how many kwh are going to your water heating. You can get the details for either approach with a quick google search. This would also help determine if your current system is working correctly.

30 kwh per day is not extreme. Ours for Sept (in VA) was 40 kwh per day with all electric (appliances, heat pump, etc). Of course, it depends on lots of factors. # of people, types of appliances, do you have electric car to charge, etc.

Keith

 

[charlz]

I have the same size hot water heater. My average electrical bill for the last 13 months was 66kwh/day. This includes running a pellet stove all winter and an irrigation pump several hours daily all summer with intermittent A/C use. I have wondered how much the water heater actually uses versus my wife going crazy with the electric clothes dryer. She thinks nothing of running slightly damp or just clothes that dried but sat in there a while (supposedly now wrinkled?) through another 40-minute dry cycle!

As KTurner notes, without good information on actual electricity use per device it is hard to determine if something like solar hot water is really worth it. I know our hot water usage goes up in the winter because the kids tend to take hotter showers then. However that is also when a solar HW system is at its least productive (short days, snow cover on panels, clouds, fog, etc).

I am not sure if something like this: 5in1 AC264V30A LCD Digital Energy Power Meter Volt Amp kWh Watt Running Time | eBay and connecting it at the hot water heater elements would work to track KWH usage. Have to check it every so often to see how many kwh used and then do the math to see $$.

 

[Baby Grand]

Have you considered the heat pump (hybrid) electric heaters?
I'm almost ready to pull the trigger on one, based on their low electricity consumption, the rebate, ability to use ambient heat (it'll be next to our oil furness & near a wood stove) and to dehumidify (in our damp basement).

 

[boggen]

insulation blanket around how water heater "tanks" can help a good amount.

when i redid plumbing in this house. i went ahead and install pipe insulation on all hot water lines. there is a noticable difference, from initially turning on sink and starting to feel warm water. to actually getting the hottest water, the pipe insulation does make a difference getting to the hottest water, granted all my pipes are exposed in the basement along the ceiling. and i only keep basement around 50 to 60 degrees in winter. (how ever low i can set theromstate down there).

==================
start flipping off breakers, and going out and looking at the meter, then go and flip some more breakers off, and going out and looking at meter, till ya find something, that is being a major electricity expense.

they do sell some amp/watt meters that plug into the wall, and then you plug what ever into the meter. ((think thumb length mini extension cord with a digital read out of amps/watts being used)).

 

[MtHam]

If you heat water with either electricity or propane, solar make tremendous sense. I have been doing so for the last 23 years, and I estimate it has saved at least $8,000 in propane. Having once been a salesman in the industry (early 80's when there were government incentives), I understood the economics and never understood why people hesitated or did not make the purchase decision. Later, I found a used system (owner's children had grown and moved out, time for a new roof and the panels had to come off) for $300. The best purchase I ever made! Installed it myself. Would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

[buickanddeere]

a large 80-120 gallon electric controlled from a timer to operate only during the lowest utility rates.
No combustible gasses around. No fuel tank to run empty. No need for huge amounts of electric or fuel for short bursts of heating. Very low upfront installation costs. Very simple and reliable.