Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives

   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #141  
Not apples to apples. The only reason those people in Toyotas are not vaporized by NATO forces is due to the restraint adhered to by the civilized world with the intent of saving the innocent bystanders.

The problem is the Yahoo's in the Toyota's and the AK47's eventually win a war of attrition as the high priced, high tech opposition goes broke and are sent home due to public opinion. Reminds me of Nam, Soviets in Afganistan, Americans in Afaganistan, Americans in Iraq twice and now working on the 3rd repeat.
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #142  
Doc,

It seems to me that your problem here - if I may be blunt - is simply one of ignorance.

You need to become better acquainted with the specifics of the diesel combustion process, diesel fuel, cetane numbers, etc.

Then you'll have a basis to understand why having a better quality diesel fuel is desirable and preferable ... (as opposed to having a poorer quality one)



Diesel fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cetane number - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are a couple of ways to improve the cetane number: One is in the refining process, another is thru the use of additives ...

There are a couple of additives that are commonly used to do this: EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate) and DTBP (Di-tert-butyl peroxide) ... much written about it ...

(Educate yourself if you so desire ... but don't look to me to do it for ya: I'm way too busy at the moment to provide personal tutoring ...)

This is actually something you can personally understand ... with your own cognitive abilities, rather than having to have a blue-ribbon committee's stamp of approval ...

Being no fan of "Motor Rebuild In A Can", I really do get the distaste for the STP (and similar products) fiasco(s) ...

However, if you are using that one instance (or any number of them) to now adopt a fixed idea that all fuel supplements must be "snake-oil" then you yourself have wandered off into territory that is as logically fallacious as those who would accept Uncle Gomer's Miracle Fuel Treatment as being divinely ordained and good for everything that ails ya ...

#1 I specialize in exploring my own ignorance. It is a target rich environment.
#2 Appreciate the wiki references. Read and mostly understood.
#3 With regard specifically to claims of increased efficiency/power/MPG etc, I find no supportive evidence other than advertising claims. I also found the following statement in a service bulletin from Cummins regarding fuel properties and their engines: "There are no known additives that increase the power or improve the efficiency of a properly maintained engine." http://www.sbmar.com/Maintenance/PDF/Cummins-Fuel_ServiceBulletin_Nov-07.pdf Cummins doesn't provide the actual data that leads to their conclusion but I'm content that they have no reason to make such a statement if it is not their considered opinion after technical review of the issue.

My conclusion (to date) is that road diesel in the US is acceptable as is for tractor engine operations with the caveat that folks who operate tractors in very cold weather should make sure they are using winter fuel or adding a cetane booster or other anti gelling additive. It also appears that 5% biofuel has potential advantages and no particular downsides. There does not appear to be any credible data supporting increased efficiency or MPG claims so if that is a major goal, additive purchase is wasteful.

#4 My radar shows lots more ignorance targets to work on so I will probably shelve this particular self education project until additional reliable data crosses my screen.
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #143  
#1 I specialize in exploring my own ignorance. It is a target rich environment.
#2 Appreciate the wiki references. Read and mostly understood.
#3 With regard specifically to claims of increased efficiency/power/MPG etc, I find no supportive evidence other than advertising claims. I also found the following statement in a service bulletin from Cummins regarding fuel properties and their engines: "There are no known additives that increase the power or improve the efficiency of a properly maintained engine." http://www.sbmar.com/Maintenance/PDF/Cummins-Fuel_ServiceBulletin_Nov-07.pdf Cummins doesn't provide the actual data that leads to their conclusion but I'm content that they have no reason to make such a statement if it is not their considered opinion after technical review of the issue.


My conclusion (to date) is that road diesel in the US is acceptable as is for tractor engine operations with the caveat that folks who operate tractors in very cold weather should make sure they are using winter fuel or adding a cetane booster or other anti gelling additive. It also appears that 5% biofuel has potential advantages and no particular downsides. There does not appear to be any credible data supporting increased efficiency or MPG claims so if that is a major goal, additive purchase is wasteful.

#4 My radar shows lots more ignorance targets to work on so I will probably shelve this particular self education project until additional reliable data crosses my screen.


Cummins does not make small, indirect injection, low pressure injection, mechanically-governed diesel engines. There are important differences. Small tractor engines like ours are more sensitive to cetane level, incomplete combustion, and cleanliness. Fuel supplements have been shown to reduce wear & fuel consumption, which must mean more complete combustion.

As stated earlier, biodiesel has significant disadvantages of higher temp gelling and much shorter shelf life. It is true it has higher lubricity.

My tractor fuel consumption has gone down using OptiLube XPD during the same applications (typically mowing). That is a fact.
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #144  
Cummins does not make small, indirect injection, low pressure injection, mechanically-governed diesel engines. There are important differences. Small tractor engines like ours are more sensitive to cetane level, incomplete combustion, and cleanliness. Fuel supplements have been shown to reduce wear & fuel consumption, which must mean more complete combustion.

As stated earlier, biodiesel has significant disadvantages of higher temp gelling and much shorter shelf life. It is true it has higher lubricity.

My tractor fuel consumption has gone down using OptiLube XPD during the same applications (typically mowing). That is a fact.

I'm happy to learn more but need references not testimonials to convince me. "Fuel supplements have been shown to reduce wear and fuel consumption" ---where is the data published?
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #145  
View attachment Fleet Owner rebutal article 9-1-12.pdf

Here - have a look at this lovely sample of diesel fuel around the U.S. Note the widely varying lubricity provided from the pump fuels. Same with cetane level, etc.

Sorry, this supports conclusion diesel fuel in U.S. is crappy compared to Europe & Japan, hence we use additives........

There is much more available out there, I have more, as rswyan sez, have at it. Here in Minnesota I try to use Koch Gold with min. cetane of 42. 42!!! hah! what do you suppose the typical pump fuel is? ASTM D975 requires 40 min., I'll bet some is BELOW that - and our little engines need AT LEAST 45 cetane, with 50 preferred.
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #146  
Loosing half of twelve F-18F's or loosing half of four F-35's ? I'll take my chances with six F-18F's over two F-35's.

And lose 6 pilots to go along with those F-18s? Not the best plan in the world. As odd as it sounds its easier to ramp up an assembly line than it is to train pilots. Training pilots is a multi year process.

The maintenance costs of a F-18F are much lower than F-35 service.

Right now at this moment. You can't compare a 20 year old system to one that doesn't even have initial operational capability. The trend with all aircraft is that maintenance costs decrease up to the point the airframes start wearing out. At comparible points in the life cycle the maintenance costs of the F-35 are only slightly higher than the F-18.

While the F-35's are on the ground with highly trained techs nursing complex systems. A bunch of farm kids have the F-18F's flying.

Again you're talking a 20 year old system vs one that hasn't hit IOC yet. Every aircraft we've built in the last 40 years has been "unreliable" during the EMD/LRIP phase. The whole point of EMD/LRIP is to use actual production prototypes to clear issues not caught in the RDT&E phase. Typically no system, whether it's a truck or plane, has it's full reliability and availability until after full rate production and full operational capability.

F-35 and F-18F are built by two different manufactures. Now twice the training, tooling and spare parts are required $$$

Not twice because you don't have the same number of each aircraft. Remember you're talking about a mixture here. Secondarily, the goal is not to cost the least amount possible. If that were the goal, we could have kept turning out older aircraft at any point in the last 30 years. The goal is to increase operational capabilities at a reasonable cost, which a high/low system mix does. We've proven that time and time again.

The F-35 can't get anywhere without tanker support. There is extra upfront cost,, overhead $$$ logistics and vulnerability

The combat radius of the F-35 is less than that of the Advanced Hornet but it's a moot point because tankers will be used regardless. The CONOPS of basically all fighter aircraft is to tank up once airborne to replace fuel burned on takeoff and maximize range. In comparing cost, how the aircraft is used is as important as numbers in a specification.

The F-35 is not invisible to radar. It has a exhaust plume that is detectable. Depending on the range and radar frequency any and all aircraft show on radar. There is no radar invisible airplane. Then there are contrails under some conditions and plain old visibility by eye.

Once again, my degree says aerospace engineer on it, so I'm more aware of the details of this than most. Stealth does not nor has it ever meant "invisible." It means low observable. The MORE low observable you are, the more options you have for route planning. The difference in the radar system being able to see you at 100 miles and 150 miles may mean the difference in you getting shot down. And yes, there's no such thing as stealth at low frequency, but at low frequency you have the problem of accuracy. You know someone is there, but the position error is very high. Missiles have to get pretty close to effect a shootdown. How much good is knowing someone is there if you can't shoot at them effectively? Low frequency radar is THE oldest and cheapest radar tech in existence so why hasn't every country in the world put out those systems? Because of the reasons I mentioned. The physics of radio propagation and return are fixed, with the ultimate result of a relatively limited number of frequencies being suitable for use in tracking and engaging aircraft with weaponry. I don't have to be low observable to every radio frequncy, just the ones that are militarily effective in tracking and engagement.

Exhaust plumes might be visible on radar, but missile systems are not designed to track exhaust plumes. Again, knowing someone is there does you no good if you can't shoot at them.

Every stealth aircraft in operation and development has a contrail detection and avoidance system. They don't show contrails unless they want to show contrails.

And as far as optical tracking and engagement of fighters, as someone who has actually worked on such a system, that's easier said than done. Resolution of available optical sensors is a problem trying to track relatively small targets like fighters over a wide area. The latest fighters have EO/IR tracking and engagement systems but they're secondary in nature requiring target handoff from something like an AWACS in order to narrow their field of view.

If really wanting to be on the sneak with F-35's. There will still have to be F-18G Growlers sent in with them.

So you're going to send even MORE aircraft to do the same job and claim it will lower costs. And not only will you not be low observable, you're going to scream "here I am" to everybody with an RWR within 200 miles? EW is a very necessary part of the combat capabilities spectrum but like anything else has it's limitations and sending an EW aircraft in with every mission is foolhardy and unneccesarily risky.

The F-35 was a great idea that suffered the military mindset in the DOD.

Like I said before, the F-35 was compromised by the high level directive to be a joint program combined V/STOL, CTOL and CATOBAR capabilities. V/STOL compromises the aerodynamics of the design too much. The B variant still has a 600nmi combat radius with the compromised aerodynamics. With suitable optimization minus the lift fan you could see 800-900nmi easily....

Something simple and that works beats a complex item that doesn't work. A bunch of half trained wide eyed yahoo's in Toyota pickups with AK47's, improvised munitions and RPG's win all to often against NATO type forces.

They win all too often due to political considerations resulting in restrictive rules of engagement. When you take the leash off and let them bring the full complement of their capabilities to bear, the yahoos get rolled. Secondarily we've been unwilling to committ the necessary manpower to combat the insurgencies we've faced, whether you're talking Vietnam or Afghanistan. The classic ratio of friendly troops to insurgencies in order to be successful is 10 to 1. That ratio allows for control of territory, denying them movement and refuge among the populace and promoting stability. Stability is the #1 enemy of an insurgency, because of the 5/5/90 rule. 5% of the people hate you, 5% love you and the other 90% just want to be left alone to live their lives. Stability encourages the 90% to stick with you and the group that holds the 95% wins.

ETA

There are plenty of legit complaints about the F-35 and it's place in the total military capability, but the vast majority of the criticisms you see in public, are due to a gross misunderstanding of how the procurement process works and where the aircraft is at in the lifecycle. As an advanced aircraft project, there was and is significant amount of technical risk involved that sometimes costs in time and money. The question to ask is whether the costs justify the increased capability you get. Unless you want to want to be like Russia and China continually cramming "upgrades" onto obsolete airframes from 30 years ago just to give them 5 more minutes of lifespan in a conflict, then the answer is it is worth it.
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #147  
View attachment 398531

Here - have a look at this lovely sample of diesel fuel around the U.S. Note the widely varying lubricity provided from the pump fuels. Same with cetane level, etc.

Sorry, this supports conclusion diesel fuel in U.S. is crappy compared to Europe & Japan, hence we use additives........

There is much more available out there, I have more, as rswyan sez, have at it. Here in Minnesota I try to use Koch Gold with min. cetane of 42. 42!!! hah! what do you suppose the typical pump fuel is? ASTM D975 requires 40 min., I'll bet some is BELOW that - and our little engines need AT LEAST 45 cetane, with 50 preferred.

I read that article. It is an argument. There is very little data in it other than lab data. Zero data on MPG. He just says essentially that many customers report higher MPG. So does this guy: http://www.fuelmagicafrica.com/pdf/Bishop Kelly.pdf

What I am looking for is controlled data on MPG either in a lab or real world setting. How hard can it be to put exactly ten gallons of fuel or fuel plus additive into a truck and then drive it on cruise control around a race track until the fuel is gone?
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #148  
How about single engine reliability of the F-35 vs the F-18F in the high arctic ?
The F-18F tasked as a tanker can look after it's self while supporting other F-18's loaded for bear and going into a hot zone.
With smart munitions many sorties that used to be flown low and dangerous are now high altitude and much safer.
Would it be a fair guess that you are on the F-35 design team instead of the F-18?
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #149  
How about single engine reliability of the F-35 vs the F-18F in the high arctic ?

Single engine reliability is a legit issue the Navy has raised. With long overwater operations with no place to land they're squirly about not possible engine failures. Same thing with Canada and their arctic operations in the middle of nowhere. Again the high level requirement to be "joint" resulted in some compromises, single engine being one of them.

That being said, the Norwegians seem to operate their single engine F-16s in the cold fairly well and the past the USN has successfully operated A-7s, A-4s, and F-8s over water for many years when turbine engines were much less reliable so I think the issue is manageable.

The F-18F tasked as a tanker can look after it's self while supporting other F-18's loaded for bear and going into a hot zone.

So add yet another fighter aircraft to the strike package. What are we up to now? 15 or 16 in the package? 12 actually carrying bombs, a couple growlers and now a few buddy tankers to top them all off? Versus a couple F-35s for the mission, a couple F-18s for CAP near the tanker plus the tank, that's a total cost no brainer. What you're talking about is getting back into Vietnam era "Alpha Strike" numbers.


With smart munitions many sorties that used to be flown low and dangerous are now high altitude and much safer.

The S-300 SAM system, Russia's LAST generation system that they've exported to everybody and their brother, can engage targets out to 200 km and at altitudes up to 30 km (~90k ft) so exactly how high are you planning to fly in that F-18? Service ceiling is somewhat above 50k ft from what I remember. The S-400 is even more capable than that....

Would it be a fair guess that you are on the F-35 design team instead of the F-18?

I do contract work for the army so your guess is wrong. Total lifecycle cost performance tradeoffs WRT the CONOPS are just what I do, every single day I go in to work. I'm currently involved in 3 aviation acquisition programs at various stages, 1 program of record and 2 quick reaction capability. That and being an aero engineer I'm just a general aviation geek.
 
   / Favorite Diesel Fuel Additives #150  
View attachment 398531

Here - have a look at this lovely sample of diesel fuel around the U.S. Note the widely varying lubricity provided from the pump fuels. Same with cetane level, etc.

Sorry, this supports conclusion diesel fuel in U.S. is crappy compared to Europe & Japan, hence we use additives........

There is much more available out there, I have more, as rswyan sez, have at it. Here in Minnesota I try to use Koch Gold with min. cetane of 42. 42!!! hah! what do you suppose the typical pump fuel is? ASTM D975 requires 40 min., I'll bet some is BELOW that - and our little engines need AT LEAST 45 cetane, with 50 preferred.
I got this from Shell Canada; The federal minimum cetane number as determined by the CGSB (Canadian General Standard Board) is 40.
 

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