CS2410 won't start!

[ritcheyvs]

I think the OP said the starter will crank the engine if properly jumped at the starter. This means a there is some problem with the start logic and safeties for the starter. Assuming this model has a start relay, the next step would be to see if it will crank by jumping the big pins in the start relay connector (with connector unplugged from relay). He could also verify 12v at the one of the smaller coil pins when the switch is turned to crank. Beyond that, a schematic is needed.

On other Kioti tractors, the safeties are in the ground path of the start relay coil. This may include safety switches on the clutch (if any), PTO, seat, and shift neutral; or more elaborate electronic controls via a cruise module. Without a schematic this is impossible to advise.

The Op never said if he charged the battery but a low battery or previous troubleshooting (like shorting the starter to ground) may account for the lack of the glow light.

About all I can advise is to (1) find out why it doesn't crank and fix that, (2) check that the stop solenoid (assuming there is one) actually retracts when the switch is on, (3) check that there is actually voltage at the glow plugs when set to glow, and (4) check that some fuel is going to the injectors while cranking.

 

[ritcheyvs]

duplicate deleted

 

[Jgilbert]

Well, here is the workshop manual page for the start relay. Which "big pins" do I jump? When jumping, key on only or does it have to be on start?

Start relay itself checks ok except ohms reading is 72.9 compared to 85 in manual.

I have my glow plug back, i had the glow plug relay disconnected for some reason. Everything back up and connected.

Battery is at 12.27V charged.

I tried jumping 85 and 86. Nothing, no spark nothing. Tried key on and also key start.

Double checked neutral safety. I have continuity so it is neutral and ok.

Pto safety connection is on so should be good.

No idea how to test seat safety, nothing in workshop manual about seat safety.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Well, here is the workshop manual page for the start relay. Which "big pins" do I jump? When jumping, key on only or does it have to be on start?

Start relay itself checks ok except ohms reading is 72.9 compared to 85 in manual.

I have my glow plug back, i had the glow plug relay disconnected for some reason. Everything back up and connected.

Battery is at 12.27V charged.

I tried jumping 85 and 86. Nothing, no spark nothing. Tried key on and also key start.

Double checked neutral safety. I have continuity so it is neutral and ok.

Pto safety connection is on so should be good.

No idea how to test seat safety, nothing in workshop manual about seat safety.

Jgilbert: Good thing you sent that CS schematic. The start logic (control circuit) is COMPLETELY unlike any CK or DK I have ever seen. So much so that I wonder if the schematic is correct, but I'll take it at face value for now. Also, it does not show what is connected to the node "circle EG" but I assume it is powered from the "on" contact of the key switch because it must be powered for the tractor to start or run.

Instead of jumping pins at the start solenoid connector, do the following (you may need a helper for the second step):
1. With the key on, the PTO off, and tranny in neutral, measure the voltage at start relay connector pin 85 (should be 12v)
2. While someone turns the key to crank, measure the voltage at start relay connector pin 30 (should be 12v)
The result from these two tests should tell where to look next.

There is a bypass jumper test you could run: Install a jumper between pins 30 and 87 of the start relay connector and then turn the key to crank. That should engage the starter if the key switch, start fuse, and wiring are OK.

DO NOT jump between pins 85 and 86; that creates a dead short in place of the relay coil. If you jump 85 and 86 and turn the key (which you apparently did) there is a good chance you burned out the start diode or whatever fuse supplied node "circle EG" in the diagram (unless you were fortunate enough to have the PTO on or tranny in gear).

Supplemental: According to the schematic, the seat switch must be closed (seat occupied) or the stop solenoid will shut off IP fuel to the engine unless in neutral with PTO off (in effect a dead man engine kill switch). As far as I know, CKs or DKs do NOT have a seat switch. According to the schematic, the seat switch does not effect the engine crank function. But the text in the manual says the seat switch must be closed for the engine to crank; I think this is an error (it should have said neutral switch). Given the korean-to-english language issues, I have more confidence in the schematic than the words.

 

[Jgilbert]

Your #1: I could not get a voltage reading. Maybe I did it wrong.
Your#2: same.

Jumped 30 and 87 and tractor started! It died when I got off the seat so for some reason the safety switch kicked in.

I feel we are getting closer, I'm guessing seat safety somehow but then again I know nothing about mechanics and electrics.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Jgilbert: If you look at your schematic, I'll recap what's happening. The "circle EG" node is powered when the key switch is on (although I can't tell exactly how from this schematic). Electrical current flows straight down through the seat switch and energizes the engine stop solenoid, this allows the injection pump to send fuel to the engine. When you turn the key to crank with a jumper across pins 30-87 current goes from the key switch, through the fuse, across the jumper, and into the starter solenoid. And the engine cranks and starts.

Now, if everything worked correctly, current could also flow through the PTO switch (if the PTO is disengaged), through the neutral switch (if in neutral), and through the DIODE SF to keep the stop solenoid energized, even after you got off the seat and the seat switch opened. This didn't work so we know there is a problem in that path through the PTO and neutral switches.

You checked the PTO and neutral switches before so I assume you know where they are.

(1) Go first to the PTO switch. Unplug the connector. Turn the key switch to on. Then measure the voltage (to chassis ground) at both contacts in the tractor-side connector. One of then should be 12v and one near zero.

(2) If that checks out, go to the neutral switch and repeat the same test. Again, one contact should be 12v and one near ground. If you don't see the 12v, first check that the PTO clutch was disengaged. Then check the PTO switch adjustment to insure the switch is closed when the PTO is disengaged and open when engaged. Then check the neutral switch adjustment to be sure it is closed in neutral and open otherwise.

An alternative method would be to unplug and bypass these (PTO and neutral) switches one at a time and jumper the two contacts on the tractor side of the connector. If that fixes the problem there is something wrong with that particular switch (it may be bad or out of adjustment).

If all these things check out I think it's back to a problem with a wiring harness or wiring harness connector. I think you lucked out when you shorted pins 85 and 86; the open circuit that's causing your problem (probably) also prevented damage when you did that bad short test.

If your service manual shows the wiring harnesses and connectors, look for any connectors in the path between the PTO and neutral switch and between the neutral switch and start relay. Some of the newer manuals to include this type of detail so you may be lucky again.

Scott

 

[Jgilbert]

Thank you for all the help.

I tried the latest post and found out that my pto switch had a wire broke off inside it. Soldered it and it started like a charm.

Thanks again, I learned so much.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Jgilbert: ATTABOY!

That was a hard one to find. But you found it using a systematic and logical approach to isolate the real problem (vs the usual random swapping of related parts while hoping to get the right one). As Hercule Poriot describes it: "method and order." Congrats.

 

[inchman]

I have a cs2410 with only 119 hours on it. When I turn the switch, lights come on including glow plug which turn off like normal. I also hear the clicking sound. When I continue to turn to start,it does nothing but the clicking keeps going.
(SOME STUFF DELETED)

I just had this happen to me on my brand new CS2510. After teaching anyone in a 10 mile range a bunch of vocabulary I learned in the Army, I broke down and read the manual. Then I realized how big of a waste of time that was!

I went to check the fuses and low and behold, the starter fuse had fell out of the fuse block! REALLY?

So check that first (or next.)

Let me know if that was it.