Hay preservative systems for small squares?

[BAP]

Innuendo- I feed no additives- chemical, manmade, etc. I have had good luck with this. Follow your own course.

The OP was asking about hay preservative systems for square balers and anybody's experience using them, not for somebody' personal belief that it is all bad. If you had troubles with it and sludge, tell us once and leave it at that. Don't keep beating it into the rest of us as "Gospel Truth" when you really don't know if it is.

 

[MikePA]

There are several studies about preservative treated hay, here's the quote from one of them;

Is preservative-treated hay safe for my horse?
The most common hay preservative is an organic acid preparation containing buffered propionic acid. Preservatives are used to prevent mold formation and produce a cleaner hay. A study performed at Cornell University found that, when given a choice, horses preferred alfalfa that was not treated with a preservative over alfalfa that had been treated with a mixture of acetic and propionic acid. A study conducted at the University of Illinois found that yearlings receiving hay treated with this preserva- tive consumed just as much and gained just as much over a 1- month feeding period as yearlings consuming untreated hay. Clinical measures of well-being such as serum enzyme levels were not affected by consumption of preservative-treated hay, indicating the hay had no negative effects on the horses.

 

[AKfish]

I grew up in central SD. You could mow prairie hay in July and bale it the next day. Of course, it was 104F and 25% humidity! Never heard of tedding or flail conditioning - didn't need it. And if you had "dusty" hay that meant you stacked it too close to the road!

Might have hit 80F here this past hay season - maybe 2 days all summer - and I'd be surprised if the relative humidity ever dropped below 70%. Tough hay making conditions.

I mow with a Kuhn disc mower with flail conditioner. Use a NH Tedder and a Kuhn rotary rake. If we get a break on the temps (=80F+) and a bit less humidity -- I'll bale on day 4. If not, I really need another day!

So, I don't hook the mower up unless the forecast is odds on that the window will be 5 days or so.

Over the past 7 years, we've managed to get good hay outta 5 of those seasons. This year was not one of the good ones.. We've got $6,500 worth of dusty hay in the barn!

And a horse that's coughing! So, I'm gonna figure out what I need/can do to better manage our hay production efforts.

I appreciate the comments as well as all the information.

AKfish

 

[rankrank1]

Any thought to switching a more traditional roller type conditioner?

Everything I have read about flail conditioners is that they have to be set exactly perfect to have even a remote chance to work close to as good as a roller conditioner. With flails as crop type changes (adjustments required), as yield density changes (adjustments required), as cutting speed changes (adjustments required). Otherwise even when flails are set as close to perfect as possible; many still claim that some crop still gets through without any conditioning whatsoever. When flail conditioner adjustment is way off then many claim that lots of crop gets through without any conditioning.

Roller conditioners are pretty much set once and forget them. All crops get conditioned without the chance of any getting missed - pretty much idiot proof.

Sounds like the only place flail conditioners shine is in better durability. (e.g. Can run a rock or fencepost through flail conditioner without destroying rollers).

Have never personally used a mower with flail conditioners can only go by what I have read, but certainly food for thought....

Out of curiosity: I wonder how one of those ole New Idea Cutditioner's or Mathew's Rotary Scythe's would do in the Alaskan climate. Those things were known tractor hp hogs but both cut and conditioned with flails. Many claimed nothing dried down faster than hay cut with these. That said they left ragged shaggy cuts and I am sure some leaf loss in leafey crops. I do not know anyone who uses them anymore.

 

[AKfish]

Any thought to switching a more traditional roller type conditioner?

Everything I have read about flail conditioners is that they have to be set exactly perfect to have even a remote chance to work close to as good as a roller conditioner. With flails as crop type changes (adjustments required), as yield density changes (adjustments required), as cutting speed changes (adjustments required). Otherwise even when flails are set as close to perfect as possible; many still claim that some crop still gets through without any conditioning whatsoever. When flail conditioner adjustment is way off then many claim that lots of crop gets through without any conditioning.

Roller conditioners are pretty much set once and forget them. All crops get conditioned without the chance of any getting missed - pretty much idiot proof.

Sounds like the only place flail conditioners shine is in better durability. (e.g. Can run a rock or fencepost through flail conditioner without destroying rollers).

Have never personally used a mower with flail conditioners can only go by what I have read, but certainly food for thought....

Out of curiosity: I wonder how one of those ole New Idea Cutditioner's or Mathew's Rotary Scythe's would do in the Alaskan climate. Those things were known tractor hp hogs but both cut and conditioned with flails. Many claimed nothing dried down faster than hay cut with these. That said they left ragged shaggy cuts and I am sure some leaf loss in leafey crops. I do not know anyone who uses them anymore.

I looked at the roller crimp MoCo's. There were a number of reasons that I passed on that option. One, I wanted a newer model with a disc mower cutter bar. I looked and looked for a NH, Deere, or Kuhn (have dealers in AK) that I could run with 60Hp. Used, 8-9 ft. with a roller-crimper was like finding a unicorn!

'Course most of the literature says that the flail type works best with grasses and the roller type is more suited to leafy forage like alfalfa.

And, I didn't want to go through a divorce after I bought a 95Hp tractor to run a 12-13 ft MoCo!

AKfish

 

[rankrank1]

...'Course most of the literature says that the flail type works best with grasses and the roller type is more suited to leafy forage like alfalfa.....AKfish

Yes most of the literature I have read from the actual equipment manufacturers states exactly what you stated. Course I would not expect any manufacturer to openly admit their flails are inferior either.

However, most of the stories that I have read from the actual end user customer's claim that flails have to be adjusted perfectly to work anywhere close to as good as a roller conditioner regardless of crop type. Even when flails adjusted perfectly those same customers admit some crop still gets through without conditioning. Furthermore, those same customers claim that keeping the flails somewhere close to optimum adjustment seems to be a difficult daily problem for them. As several variables with a hay crop changes then the flail machine is no longer in optimum adjustment and even more hay gets through without conditioning. (Note: I am not bashing your cutter as I have never used one and certainly have no dog in this argument. Myself , I am only a junk operator piddling with antiques).

Assuming all those stories I have read are true that some hay always gets through without conditioning on a flail machine: Would something like this be useful in your Alaska climate? (and be a useful compliment to your existing cutting machine? Seems to me it might fix anything that could have been missed conditioning first time around and would be no different than a trip over the field tedding or raking)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mRFvJygwnY

Wonder what something like this machine even costs?

 

[MikePA]

A friend of mine, who farms over 100 acres of hay, got a moco last year and says it's one of best implements he has purchased in years for reducing the time between cutting and baling. Also, he does not grow alfalfa.

 

[rankrank1]

Another more in depth video I found on that same machine I posted earlier

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1og_YhNFvMY

FWIW: I really enjoyed watching this video. Most importantly it was nice to see an Ag products manufacturer totally confirm what I have already learned with some experimenting on my own piddle patch operation. Nice to see data and studies back up my own experiences though. I cut with a Hesston 1120 (9' traditional sickle mower with roller conditioners). I lay my swath out wide instead of windrowing it. Once that swatch goes limp and lies flat on the ground either same day or early next day , I rake it into a loose fluffy windrow with my rake. No one else that I know rakes this early. That said, I do not use just any hay rake because some rakes are known rope makers that do not promote hay drying. Instead, I use an old antique rake that makes very loose and fluffy windrows that the wind and air can circulate through easily. I can even adjust the loosness and fluffiness of my windrow. Once that loose fluffy windrow from my rake goes limp, I then flip the windrow again with the tail of the rake making yet another very loose and fluffy windrow that the wind and air circulates through. I get excellent drying this way without sun bleaching. Plus , I gain all the moving the swath benefits to drier ground that the fancy machine claims.

Except for the extra conditioning that their fancy machine does offer (and the ability to travel at 10 mph) , My primitive $90 antique rake method offers most all the other same benefits that their fancy machine does but I am admittingly limited to 5 to 5.5 mph or so travel speed with my antique steel wheeled rake which is plenty fast enough for the antique tractors I am using to operate anyhow (my back would not handle much more). Kinda cool....No way cool....

I think I am geeked now learning the some of the "why" behind how my method works. When I started implementing my current method it is was really more of a taking what I had available and in my mind improvising to make it work as best I could as it was all I had available to use. With all this new information that I am processing: I simply may not be improvising as much as I originally thought I was.

Started doing some of this additional reading in an effort to learn more about haying in Alaska and here I learned more details about why what I do (even though few others do it the way I do) works in Ohio. Best of all, I am simply not improvising as much as I thought I have been all along...simply did not fully understand till now (again very cool).

 

[AKfish]

Interesting videos. Like to know how the machine picks the crop up from the field. No teeth were visible etc. Wonder about price, too.

AKfish

 

[aczlan]

Interesting videos. Like to know how the machine picks the crop up from the field. No teeth were visible etc. Wonder about price, too.

Per the brochures on their site (ReCon 300), specifically, page 9 of http://www.agshield.com/files/ReCon 300/ReCon_300_adavanced_grower_info.pdf the rollers themselves pickup the hay.

Aaron Z