Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[MossRoad]

25hp isn't 25hp. A 25hp diesel engine will make more torque than a 25hp gas engine, and will do it at a lower RPM with a much better torque curve. That is why most tractors use diesel rather than gas and diesels. Torque is important to keep hydraulic pumps and PTOs running.

That's torque, not HP. 25 is 25 is 25 period.

 

[hutchman]

I've been running or working around turbocharged diesel engines nearly every day for decades.
It is very rare to have a turbo failure.
I work for a paving/construction company and we have several dozen trucks/equipment and nearly all have turbo's.
Turbo's generally last the life of the engine from my experience.

If you're talking heavy equipment and over the road trucks ... don't know. Our military stuff was turbo but they may be made heavier.

Anyway, here are 89 turbo failures in the new midsize Passat:
TURBO: Please report NMS turbo failures here. [not a discussion thread!] - TDIClub Forums

 

[MossRoad]

For the umpteenth time . The transition to diesel from gasoline to diesel in farm tractors in the 50's ,60's and 70's was because diesel was cheaper to operate than gasoline . The cost of diesel was less per gallon, diesel had more btu per gallon and Diesel engines with higher mechanical expansion ratios had higher thermal efficiency.
Now again drag yourself out of a non emissions diesel 1970 farm tractor ploughing etx at max rated power for hundreds of hours each sling and fall.Info 2015 where diesel costs much more than gasoline per btu, Diesel engines are complex and expensive with tier IV emissions . Where the gasoline engine is not limited with a carburator, points ignition and low expansion ratios.
The topic is light duty applications in 2015 such as CUT, lawn equipment, ATV, RTV,boats , snowmobiles etc 300HP field tractors pulling a nine shank V-Ripper.
Why keep going back to 1970 and comparing gas to diesel? Look at your calendar , what is the date ?

You are hopelessly beating a dead horse.

 

[DK35vince]

If you're talking heavy equipment and over the road trucks ... don't know. Our military stuff was turbo but they may be made heavier.

Anyway, here are 89 turbo failures in the new midsize Passat:
TURBO: Please report NMS turbo failures here. [not a discussion thread!] - TDIClub Forums

Yes, I'm talking tri axle trucks, tandam and single axle trucks, tractor trailers, pavers, chippers, high lifts, skid steers, Etc. Etc.

 

[hutchman]

Yes, I'm talking tri axle trucks, tandam and single axle trucks, tractor trailers, pavers, chippers, high lifts, skid steers, Etc. Etc.

I kind of figured. That industry has had some churn but not like the passenger auto industry and the price pressures etc. Lots of auto mfr's are having issues with all the recent changes. Heck, Mazda has been trying to release their sky active diesel for years now. Honda developed a pretty awesome clean diesel back in 2006 and I don't think they ever released it in the US.

It's a pretty turbulent time in a market that normally doesn't usually face radical change.

The diesels VW used here in the US (pre 2007 that is) were used in Europe for years and we're pretty much a known quantity. They had to have tweaks to be brought here but nothing earth shattering.

Now everything everywhere is shook up.

 

[hutchman]

Yes, I'm talking tri axle trucks, tandam and single axle trucks, tractor trailers, pavers, chippers, high lifts, skid steers, Etc. Etc.

I'm sure some of the stuff you work on is $100K +

 

[GManBart]

I already told you the reasons but you don't read.
Diesel is not coming down in the US because there is more profit to me made.
The refinery upgrades and equipment were paid off between 2009 and 2011 in the standard business model. The price of ULSD is not coming down due to lower refining costs.
Other countries around the world diesel is not cheaper because it's lower cost to produce. Diesel is cheaper because the governments tax diesel lass than gasoline.
Are you denying the gas Cruze costs less to purchase, costs less for fuel per miles and future service costs will be lower than diesel?

Why is it that when I point out you make a glaring mistake (like say I haven't posted something I have) you try to reverse it?

Your "theory" is wrong, and before you even stated it, I disproved it (you didn't read that either, evidently)....I countered what I knew you were going to say with actual facts, not wild theories.

You're saying diesel prices will stay high because refineries want to make more money, regardless of their cost to produce. That's a ridiculous statement considering what we've seen the last few months. We have proof, not wild theories, in the recent few months. Gas prices have been slashed nearly in half because their cost to produce dropped significantly. If your theory was valid, they wouldn't have lowered their prices, but they did.

Taxes are the big difference in price between gas and diesel? Are you sure of that? Do you even know what the tax differences are between the two? Approximately $.06 per gallon....that's it. Proof:

Motor Fuel Taxes

The refineries upgrades were paid off between 2009 and 2011? Oh wait, that's according to a model you claim, not actual proof, or facts. Funny, but ULSD wasn't finished being implemented until 2010, so how did they pay it off before, or immediately after making those changes? Don't bother trying, you can't answer that.

Diesel demand has been lower in the U.S. than in the rest of the world for a long time, so the rest of the world subsidized the upgrades needed for ULSD faster. Since 2004 the demand for diesel has grown roughly 30% in the U.S., but production has only increased about 15%. We call that economics....supply and demand. The refineries have had high demand, and increased operating expenses....those both lead to higher costs, but only temporarily. When they catch up to demand, and finish paying off the upgrades, diesel will be back to being lower than gasoline, just like it is in the rest of the world. We may not be on the same timeline as the rest of the world, but our math isn't any different than theirs, so the same thing will happen. Some light reading if you want some actual facts:
https://blog.gasbuddy.com/posts/Why-diesel-costs-more/1715-485481-832.aspx

A diesel Cruze costs less to purchase. Fuel costs will vary with the price of the fuel. Future service costs are still undetermined....we'll only know that after they get some years on them, but folks who actually understand modern DI engines have pointed out all the extra stuff on them that would be bad on a tractor, so it's still a pretty weak comparison.

The funny thing is that you're talking about light duty vehicle, and you may be one of the few people who think that applies to tractors. When I'm doing something as boring as mowing I'm running my tractor for hours and hours at PTO speed....not even remotely similar to how a true light duty work cycle would be.

Maybe you putter around with your machines, I do work with mine.

 

[94BULLITT]

I think this thread shows why there is not a gas powered CUT. It looks like very few would buy it even though it may be cheaper to operate.

 

[buickanddeere]

So lets get down to brass tacks. Really this is all about preference and personal conviction. There is no right or wrong. I'm not a gas hater (I like muscle cars, lust over stuff on Overhaulin show etc.) I'm glad the GDI is making technical gains. The GDI is a little late to the party ... diesel's have been doing direct injection since 1986. The fact is (and buickanddeer won't admit) GDI and TDI (I'll use TDI for Diesel Direct Injection ... which really stands for Turbo Direct Injection but just so long as you know when I say TDI I'm talking diesel) is basically the same technology just different fuel. The GDI has nastier (by a lot!) particulate matter in the exhaust compared to TDI. The older PFI gas engines were better with polution.

So, snapshot in time ... if you're not a diesel fan and want the best bang for the buck, get a GDI now because it won't be long the GDI will look just like the new TDI's. You'll have an EGR cooler (I've had trouble with both of mine ... they don't last forever ... lots of opposing forces ... hot exhaust gas moving through a honeycomb cooled by radiator fluid around it), some kind of particulate filter (GPF is what they are called for the GDI) etc. With the new tighter regulations on MPG standards coming up, cars have to go to GDI (or TDI). But GDI pollutes more so the solution is to reduce the size of them to keep the cost of a filter system down so they can pass the forthcoming emissions. You are living in a pipe dream if you think this isn't coming. EPA hates diesel and they've already shook up that market. They hate gas too just less than diesel. You are fooling yourself if you think GDI's don't have a target on their back. If you want one, get them now! EPA won't be happy until we are all riding bicycles. We can't go back to ox carts and horses because they put out too much methane!

Making GDI's smaller will probably mean the same thing it did for diesel ... now you need a turbo so whatever it is has enough power to get out of its own way. Natural aspirated won't cut it. Look at 2.7 EchoBoost - small engine with twin turbo's to make truck power. Look at the old VW Rabbit (natural aspirated). Non turbo and what, 60HP? It couldn't do the speed limit falling off a cliff. I know, my uncle had one.

Turbo's are bombs waiting to go off. Engines of the future (gas and diesel) will be more expensive, lighter, complicated, and less reliable. Gone are the days you put gas in your Toyota Corolla and that's all you did ... you never changed the oil, radiator fluid, plugs etc. and it let you get by with that for 100's of thousands of miles.

I do preventive maintenance on my TDI. If I don't it will bite me. They are like a high maintenance female ... pay them attention and you're OK, don't and watch out. I'm about to either rebuild my turbo or just replace it. They spin at 200,000 rpm and can get cherry red if you are hammering the peddle down. If a shaft breaks it grenades the fins and sends them into the intake. Ingesting metal isn't good for anything. If a turbo oil seal fails, the diesel will "run away" (engine will ingest and run on it's own oil) and a gasser will probably get holes in all the pistons because it isn't high enough compression to burn the oil and liquid doesn't exactly compress well so something has to give and you can guess what that is. Plus the pistons on new GDI's are a lot lighter than they used to be so rods will be gone too. Basically the whole engine will be trashed.

Intercoolers can get moisture in them that get ingested too but I won't get into all that. The diesel since it has a heavier block/piston's and higher compression can survive some of these events I'm describing better. On an Aluminum block gasser ... toast!

I've chosen (again personal preference/conviction) to avoid the new generation of diesel's with high pressure fuel pumps, DPF's etc. in my cars and tractor. I'm sure the technology will mature and get better but I don't have the patience at this point in my life to put up with all this stuff ... if you keep your vehicles 4-5 years (and are OK with perpetual payments) and flip them then you probably won't have any issues. If you are like me and keep stuff 10+ years, I can guarantee you will have some serious issues. I expect around 20yrs for my tractor.

Educate yourself and make an informed decision based on your personal preferences and risk tollerance. Seek out forums that are in-the-know about the thing you are looking at and camp out there to see what people smarter than you are saying about it. That's the best advice I can give.

Diesels have been direct injection since the days of Rudolf Diesel.
Gas Port injected and Gas DI engines have not used EGR valves since cam timing became adjustable . The exhaust cam is retarded when EGR is required which leaves exhaust gasses in the combustion chamber .
Gasoline by it very nature burns cleaner than diesel. Just as LP burns cleaner than gasoline .NG burns cleaner than LP. Hydrogen burns cleaner than NG.
Engines are now built smaller and lighter to fit inside smaller vehicles and still leave leg room and a crumple zone. Any engine working near max volumetric efficiency has higher thermal efficiency that a large engine loading at part load, diesel in particular. The small engine is from cruise and the turbo is for momentary use for acceleration . The light highway and the CUT engine is not operating continious at or near max rated load and redline rpms.
The turbo on my Grand National has just shy of 200,000 miles and it's not leaking oil nor does it have excessive play. Seems to last well enough.
Bubba that skips oil changes, uses cheap oil and blippes the throttle a few times before shut down is who ruins turbos.

 

[buickanddeere]

If you're talking heavy equipment and over the road trucks ... don't know. Our military stuff was turbo but they may be made heavier.

Anyway, here are 89 turbo failures in the new midsize Passat:
TURBO: Please report NMS turbo failures here. [not a discussion thread!] - TDIClub Forums

My co-worker has one of those problems and the Car's head gasket is also seeping. He jumped a fuel temperature sensor which tricks the ECM into extra fuel delivery .