Approach by logging company

[Brokermike]

I hire my consulting forester by the hour, BEST $ I'VE EVER SPENT.

 

[fishheadbob]

Do mature tulip poplar trees have value to a logging co.?

Some but not much as there is a lot of it around. Best way to move tulip (yellow poplar) is to sell it along with some more valuable species. Stumpage price on tulip might be somewhere around $150 per thousand; best way to find out is just google stumpage prices in your area.
I've got a lot of tulip to get rid of but to do so I would have to let some hard maple go to get a logger interested. My woods would benefit from getting the tulip out so the better species would be released, but the maple I have now would benefit from another 10 years.
.

Somebody above mentioned how logging leaves an unsightly mess, which it definitely does, but loggers leave behind tops which to me are big long logs not straight enough for a mill . To me tops look like high quality firewood waiting to be made. If you don't want to make the firewood yourself lots of times there are firewood guys who follow a logger, or the logger can put you onto them. It reduces the amount of slash hanging around, and in a few years everything looks OK again.

 

[Jstpssng]

I would also get references on the forester. 25yrs ago I had my property logged using a forester and he recommended a local logger. It did not end well. I did not due my homework and took a beating. I only got less then half of what was quoted. I was not there when logging was being done, a big mistake on my part. This year I'm having it done again and will be on site the whole time. Good luck with your logging and be on top of them during the entire project.

Good point, you need to find somebody who shares your objectives.

The first question you should ask yourself though is "What is my ultimate goal for my woodlot?"
Unless you're sure what you want, it's going to be hard for somebody else to help you.
How big is the pine, and how dense is it? Are they planning on taking it all? If there is enough value there you may also want to get some of the lower value trees cut from other stands at the same time.

 

[EddieWalker]

I agree with all those who are suggesting you hire a forester to consult on what your objectives are for the land and what you should expect out of it. This is one of those industries where you are placing a lot of trust in a person who may or may not be honest. You will never know for sure until it's all said and done and either be happy, or upset at the results.

The simple fact that they came to you should send up red flags. In my opinion, the good ones do not go out looking for work. They don't advertise and you have to wait for them to get to you because they are already busy. Those who do not have work, who have burned too many bridges and have a bad reputation are the ones out knocking on doors looking for work.

First question is do you want to have the timber logged at this time? Since you have not been out asking around, it doesn't sound like this is what you are wanting right now. Take your time, learn as much as you can, contact your local agencies who assist landowners with timber and agriculture management and then make a decision.

If you do nothing, you are not out anything and nothing changes. If you allow them to log it, do you have any idea how you will get them to pay you for what they log? or clean up the place to your expectations after they leave? Will they pay you after every load, or when they are all done and have hauled their equipment away? If you are getting paid by the ton, how will you know how many tons get to the sawmill? How will you know if they cut an extra acre? or how many trees per acre they are cutting down? Or even is they will remain on your property and not sneak onto the neighbors land and steal a few trees from them?

From what I've heard, hiring somebody who knows these guys, who works with them, and who rely on him to get them work is the only way to be sure you are getting paid for what they actually take off your land. It is the only way to make sure the land is left in the condition you agree to before they start. It is the only way to limit them to harvesting only what you agree on before they start.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[Richard]

My father in law hired a forrester. I think he got something like 15%. Went through and documented all the trees.... he was ALSO supposed to be present to monitor / manage the loggers.

To be blunt, he was a no-show.

I was the one nagging on them to pick up their trash (gallon chain saw oil bottles that they strewn about the land)

I was the one who found and told them to remove the freaking huge tire (from their tree dragging machine) from the burn/slash pile they created.

He (logger) told me to just go ahead & burn the tire when I burned the slash pile.

I said get it out.... he essentially laughed at me (not being land owner but the bratty son in law) so I called county. They said I'd have to report the tire to them on my father on law!!! but, I could also include the logger dude. I did so and interestingly, the tire was gone within about 3 days.

They ran rough-shod over the entire property, running over trees that were in their way, leaving trash & huge slash piles. Had some kind of oil slick where their big saw was (the saw the size of a semi's trailer) Had the forrester people out and they feared much more and the ground would be contaminated and need to be dug up & replaced. (didn't get that far)

The woods now can hardly be walked through for all the underbrush that has grown.

All in all, I'd say it was a very bad experience for us. It's certainly possible that we just happened to get some bad loggers and a bad forrester guy. He should have at least been on top of the trash & tire. Instead, he was simply gone.

 

[newbury]

OP -
Remember that you will be able to see what's done on Google Earth.

Three pics
First what my part of my 70 acre lot looked like before we bought it in 2010:



The prior owner had a contract with a forestry operation to clear and replant. We knew in advance.

Next the lot after clearing:


Note that the "trail" that shows up on the north edge of the power line ROW was mainly due to ATV traffic, which stopped when I started to practice with my shotgun. Only took a few dozen shells.

And a close up of the leftover piles they left.



They did a pretty good job of cleaning up and didn't damage the land much. Plus they came back and replanted as soon as possible and I've got another good crop of pine coming up.

The point is it's now easy to see WHAT is there now and what happens after they log.

/edit and a couple of TODAYS ground shots:
The "new" pines, planted in early 2013, bent over by an ice storm last night but recovering nicely, about 3' tall.


The brush piles after about 3 years.

 

[DrRod]

We cut timber back in the 80's. Reputable forester and reputable logging company -- but still . . .

When they left, they took out the big cement pipes used as a bridge over the creek. That was part of the deal. But we later found that they had pushed one up against the bank and covered it -- wouldn't fit on their truck. So over time the water eroded it and now there it sits. Also found a big tire and some cables in the woods. Its a sloppy business.

They left all the tops where they fell but this was a great source of firewood for us and our neighbors [all hard woods]. After about five years it started to look normal, even the ruts were filling in with leaves.

But one thing I learned was that in a select cutting you expose the remaining trees to wind stresses that they aren't used too. They grew up with neighbors who are no longer there. So we lost another 10% to blow-downs. And when one went down it would take two or three others with it.

I have a stand of pines that aren't going to get any bigger so I'm interested in selling those off and letting nature take its course [pines spring up pretty readily in our area]. As for the hardwoods, I like the trees better than I like the money.

 

[newbury]

<snip>
But one thing I learned was that in a select cutting you expose the remaining trees to wind stresses that they aren't used too. They grew up with neighbors who are no longer there. So we lost another 10% to blow-downs. And when one went down it would take two or three others with it.
<snip>

That's because hardwoods are smarter.
Every time one starts to fall it yells to it's close friends and they try and grab it, and it tries to reach them.

I've cut a number down that reached out and tangled a tree you would swear it was clear of before cutting.

On a serious note soil compaction can be a real problem with "thinning" cuts. In the drive to get one tree many others may have their roots damaged.

 

[dmccarty]

First and foremost, ignore the logger that contacted you. Just do not do business with him. You need to educate yourself, as you are doing by asking questions. Take your time with timbering because you are only going to get ONE chance to get this right. You might make quite a bit of money. If you do it wrong, you can loose quite a bit of money. I have had very smart coworkers who sold timber to a guy that knocked on the door and they really got ripped off.

Get a forester/timber agent that works for you. You might have heard this already. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

The forester will work on commission so the more you get, the more he gets. Check references. The first forester we talked too, two guys working together, sent me some documentation that had a virus. The virus was to see if I had opened and read the document. My virus scanner caught the bug. I emailed them and just mentioned that it looked like the document had a virus and they should check their system. We did NOT do business with them.

Check you state extension office, if you have one, and the state forestry department. They should have quite a bit of information to help you. Our local NC Extension office has tax seminars every few years for land owners to attend. Have you thought of taxes yet? You better start thinking about taxes.

Your forester needs to "cruise" your timber and provide you with an exact inventory of your trees. This should be tree type, size and total tree volume. We have a count of every tree that was a given diameter(DBH), and the estimate of the board feet in that tree. EVERY Tree was counted and a blue slash was painted on the tree at DBH and on the stump. After logging, I could see if they tree had been marked and thus payed for because of the paint on the stump.

The forester needs to tell you the inventory of your trees that goes back to the day you bought the property. This is your basis which is very important. You will pay taxes on the value of the trees that has grown from the day you bought your property and trees until today. That is your basis. If your trees are 100 years old, and you bought the land and trees 10 years ago, you only have to pay taxes on the value of trees grown over the last 10 years. It is best to have the timber cruise done when you buy the land but many people do not know to do this. However, the forester can estimate the tree growth from the time you bought the land/trees until the date of sale.

Your forester should help create a contract to sell the timber. In NC, this is a fairly standard contract, and it is like selling a land or house. Our contract specified certain things like staying out of certain areas, protecting the road, and following the the NC state Best Management Practices(BMP). The BMP has quite a few things that the logger has to follow.

The forester should monitor the logging operation BUT YOU SHOULD TOO! This is your land so you need to watch over them. Our timber guys were pretty responsible and I don't really have any complaints.

In our case, the forester put out the timber for sale in various places that would be noticed by timber companies. Timber companies came to our place and did their own cruise to make sure our forester's inventory was accurate. Our timber was sold one morning, just after dawn, from the tailgate of my pickup truck. :shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing: One of the dangdest things I have ever done! We had a close bid auction. The timber companies showed up, there was about 12-15, and they handed over envelopes with their written bid inside. We went to my tail gate, opened the envelopes, took out the bits and sorted them from low to high. High won the timber. :shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing: We shook hands, had the lawyers draw up the contract and went to a closing just like buying/selling a house. We had a time frame in which they had to log the trees, which I think was two years, and was a standard time frame. If they had not taken the trees in two years, the trees were ours again and we kept the money. They logged immediately. :laughing:

Is your land, or can your land, have a timber valuation? Because of the logging and the timber inventory, I was able to create a timber management plan and get a timber valuation for our land which lowered our property tax buy about 90-95%! I did this after timbering when the country did a new valuation and our land value went up 500%! :shocked: The forester can help with this as well. The state forester would have done the plan for me but he had a long list of people ahead of me so I did it myself. The tax assessor said I had one of the best plans he had seen. :confused3: Go figure. :confused3:

Timber taxes is clear as mud. I had to do quite a bit of reading because timber taxes are clear as mud and we had a very unique situation. Again, the forester should be able to help with timber taxes and/or recommended a tax guy to use. I talked with quite a few tax people and after doing quite a bit of reading I knew more than they did about timber taxes. This was SCARY to me. :laughing: I suspect if I had asked around a bit more I could have found a tax guy who knew timber taxes but I just said what the heck, I know what I am doing, and if I flub it up, I flub it up. :laughing: I did get a notice from the IRS but nothing every happened. I suspect there are only a few timber tax specialists at the IRS and they are busy going after the million dollar operations and not mine. PLUS, I think my taxes were down right. :thumbsup: Again, the NC Extension office has classes on this subject as well as documents on timber taxes so hopefully your state does as well.

Reforesting? Do you want to plant seedling after the logging? The state and forester can give you information on how to do this both physically but money wise.

How much is are your trees worth? Is the value at a high or low point right now? SHOULD you sell right now or should you wait? YOU MUST FIND THE ANSWERS TO THOSE QUESTIONS! In NC, the state tracks the timber prices for hard and soft woods for different regions of the state. Hopefully, your state does the same thing. Look at the trend for timber prices in your areas and judge if it is a good time to sell. Selling timber is also very localized not only by state but by region and locality so do you homework. The forester aka timber agent can help with this but I like to have my own information from other sources. Trust but verify.

TAKE YOUR TIME DOING THIS. You get ONE chance to do this right.

Later,
Dan

 

[murphy1244]

Dan that was a well written informational post. I thank you!!! I copied this for later.