Posthole Digger Belltec loader mount hydraulic post hole auger system

[KYDan]

I ordered a Belltec hydraulic post hole digger system at the National Farm Machinery Show February 11, 2015, and it came in yesterday. It was handled by Belltec representatives at the show and sold via a local dealer. I had a message from the dealership to call them and I did, but the dealer rep that called me was unavailable and I left a message that I had returned his call. Anyway, we got together and he advised me that it looked weathered. He sent me some images via email and it definitely looked weathered. I had called the factory some time earlier about delivery and he never responded. Anyway, when I got to the dealership I looked at the unit and it was more than weathered. I ordered, or thought that I had ordered a unit for use on my MX5100 and LA 844 loader with the QA system. It included the quick attach skid steer mount with the powerhead mount on the right-hand side like I had ordered but it looked used and was rigged for a skid steer hydraulic system. It did not have the pioneer hydraulic couplings and had 8' hoses, not the 3' ones I thought I was getting. The dealer called ACI, the distributor about the unit and specifically asked them if the unit was a demo unit and although I didn't hear the conversation he said they told him it was not a demo unit. I agreed to take the auger, PUFF bit, the mounting system with the proper hoses and he has ordered a new hydraulic power unit for me. The dealer has been very helpful and offered to do whatever I wanted with the system. I decided to keep the auger, SSQA mount, PUFF bit, and wait for a new hydraulic power unit. Now, I am having second thoughts about the auger and PUFF bit as they don't have the look of a factory painted unit. This is a very expensive unit with a good reputation and I paid a substantial amount down at the time of my order. It appears that all of the components have been painted a flat black without any of the yellow trim that all of them had at the farm show.

 

[mddorange]

I would tell them I wanted what I saw and expected and nothing else!

 

[KYDan]

I just sent the factory rep from the farm show and email expressing my concerns and copied it to the dealership. The dealership has been upfront about all this as far as I can tell and been very accommodating. I really think the issue is the distributor, ACI. I think I want everything new at this point, it's a high dollar investment and I expect it to be as ordered! They did have some large limestone rock at the dealership that had been drilled through with this system and it was impressive. I am tired of damaging 3 pt. augers with all the rock and having to use a spud bar in nearly every hole I dig. The dirt here is Eden Shale and full of large rocks. This system is designed to drill through them. It's taken 6 months to dig 40 holes and I have a lot more yet to dig!

 

[ishiboo]

Honestly, I think a lot of this is us tractor owners being simply too picky. I am the same way, so don't feel bad.

The issue is farm implements are thrown on pallets, sit outside in the weather, etc. A farmer buys it and puts it to work... we buy stuff and expect it to look pretty when we take pictures to share on TBN, then leave outside. The way implements are painted (not well) and shipped (not with a whole lot of care), even if you get something brand new factory fresh, it's going to show up with chips, worn paint on edges, etc.

You ordered a skid steer mount, did you specify at any point a hose length? If not, you got what hoses it came with. Two 3' hoses are 30 bucks. It has the more expensive skid steer flush face couplers, instead of the cheap Pioneer Ag's? Get over it. Implements are bought with the couplers they come with... you need a different one, you switch them out. No big deal. You got the more expensive couplers that probably go for $40-50 a piece. Replace them with the $15 a piece Pioneers.

The bits don't look new? You are going to USE them, I would hope... they'll look worse than that your first hole through rock. Do the carbides look like they're 98% or above? Then run with it.

Listen, Sally. I don't mean to be rude... but put down your laptop, take off your dress and put some jeans on, mount that thing to your loader and start drilling holes. The next photos you post here better be some sick views of it drilling rock.

 

[KYDan]

These is a very expensive system and when the dealer representative has to question the distributor whether or not they are new and have they been used as demonstration units makes me wonder about them. The power head in particular which is fluid filled and if it has been used there is the possibility that it could be contaminated with use and since it will be introduced into the hydraulic system of my tractor When I use it I should be justifiably concerned. I realize this is not a new Corvette, but I do expect it to be new when it is sold as such. Cosmetics are not as big a deal with farm equipment, but new is new and used is used. Upon reflection and with doubts about a $5,000 post hole digger it is not just about cosmetics. The ethics of the supplier is what I question. If I have been misled about an item that I have contracted to purchase that is fraud and at this price level it is felony fraud if it is misrepresented. I am new to this type of system and trusted the factory representative at the show to assist me with what I needed to accomplish the task efficiently and effectively. I have small farmed for years with tired, old equipment, mostly 3 point hitch PTO drive stuff. Hydraulics are relatively new to me and I don't learn as fast as I did before I became a ROF. This is basically a toy, I could have paid to have the fence installed and probably spent less money than the unit cost, but doing it myself is meaningful play and some exercise. The very functional and reliable Shaver PTO auger that I have has served me well, but it is showing its age and hard use and I am tired of taking days to dig a few holes and using a spud bar and opted to plunk down hard-earned cash for new equipment and if I have to question whether it is new or not I will. Caveat emptor is the catch phrase here and I am!

 

[ishiboo]

These is a very expensive system and when the dealer representative has to question the distributor whether or not they are new and have they been used as demonstration units makes me wonder about them. The power head in particular which is fluid filled and if it has been used there is the possibility that it could be contaminated with use and since it will be introduced into the hydraulic system of my tractor When I use it I should be justifiably concerned.

You already said the powerhead was being replaced, your issue now is with the mount and bits... correct or not?

I realize this is not a new Corvette, but I do expect it to be new when it is sold as such. Cosmetics are not as big a deal with farm equipment, but new is new and used is used. Upon reflection and with doubts about a $5,000 post hole digger it is not just about cosmetics. The ethics of the supplier is what I question. If I have been misled about an item that I have contracted to purchase that is fraud and at this price level it is felony fraud if it is misrepresented.

No, it's a civil matter.

Also... perhaps they are lying to you and it was a demo, it could still not be intentional. An attachment comes, sits in the yard... a prospective buyer wants to see it work so they dig a hole, he backs out and it gets put back on the pallet. The next sales guy could genuinely not know every moment of history. Or, have a different definition of "new".

Based on the condition of the bits, I can tell you this has not been used.

I am new to this type of system and trusted the factory representative at the show to assist me with what I needed to accomplish the task efficiently and effectively. I have small farmed for years with tired, old equipment, mostly 3 point hitch PTO drive stuff. Hydraulics are relatively new to me and I don't learn as fast as I did before I became a ROF. This is basically a toy, I could have paid to have the fence installed and probably spent less money than the unit cost, but doing it myself is meaningful play and some exercise. The very functional and reliable Shaver PTO auger that I have has served me well, but it is showing its age and hard use and I am tired of taking days to dig a few holes and using a spud bar and opted to plunk down hard-earned cash for new equipment and if I have to question whether it is new or not I will. Caveat emptor is the catch phrase here and I am!

What's your definition of "new"?

If it's been mounted to a loader, filled with lube and spun up, but never dug a hole... is that no longer new? This unit has certainly been mounted, based on how the roll pins have worn the paint around them. This happens with farm shows, outdoor displays, etc. Perhaps it's dug a few test holes... is that worse than buying one that's never been tested? I'm not so sure.

It's just like buying a car. Chances are the car you buy will have test drive miles, sometimes 50, 100, 200, 400... it's still a new car, right? Or if you pick up any car with more than 0 miles on the odometer, do you tell people you bought a used car?

 

[KYDan]

My definition of new is not at question and fraud is fraud, felony fraud is dependent upon state law where the act was committed based upon the statutes in that state. Generically fraud is commonly understood as dishonesty calculated for advantage. A person who is dishonest may be called a fraud. In the U.S. legal system, fraud is a specific offense with certain features.
Fraud is most common in the buying or selling of property, including real estate, Personal Property, and intangible property, such as stocks, bonds, and copyrights. State and federal statutes criminalize fraud, but not all cases rise to the level of criminality. Prosecutors have discretion in determining which cases to pursue. Victims may also seek redress in civil court.
Fraud must be proved by showing that the defendant's actions involved five separate elements: (1) a false statement of a material fact,(2) knowledge on the part of the defendant that the statement is untrue, (3) intent on the part of the defendant to deceive the alleged victim, (4) justifiable reliance by the alleged victim on the statement, and (5) injury to the alleged victim as a result.
These elements contain nuances that are not all easily proved. First, not all false statements are fraudulent. To be fraudulent, a false statement must relate to a material fact. It should also substantially affect a person's decision to enter into a contract or pursue a certain course of action. A false statement of fact that does not bear on the disputed transaction will not be considered fraudulent. Dependent upon whether or not the Commonwealth Attorney would deem to pursue it as fraud is dependent upon the Commonwealth Attorney, and yes there is always civil redress as an option. You state matters empirically are you an attorney? My definition is irrelevant in a court of law as is the defendant's if it comes to that. I have a legal right as a consumer to expect an item purchased as new to be new and unused and if I purchase an item as new with no way of empirically determining the amount of use I have a reasonable expectation of no use implied.

 

[ishiboo]

zzzzz

You have a civil issue. I am not an attorney.

Based on your statements, I am sure they will offer to replace the whole darn thing with new so they don't have to continue dealing with this... but yeah, if you don't get it soon, call the police. :beer:

 

[beesnstuff]

I ordered a Belltec hydraulic post hole digger system at the National Farm Machinery Show February 11, 2015, and it came in yesterday. It was handled by Belltec representatives at the show and sold via a local dealer. I had a message from the dealership to call them and I did, but the dealer rep that called me was unavailable and I left a message that I had returned his call. Anyway, we got together and he advised me that it looked weathered. He sent me some images via email and it definitely looked weathered. I had called the factory some time earlier about delivery and he never responded. Anyway, when I got to the dealership I looked at the unit and it was more than weathered. I ordered, or thought that I had ordered a unit for use on my MX5100 and LA 844 loader with the QA system. It included the quick attach skid steer mount with the powerhead mount on the right-hand side like I had ordered but it looked used and was rigged for a skid steer hydraulic system. It did not have the pioneer hydraulic couplings and had 8' hoses, not the 3' ones I thought I was getting. The dealer called ACI, the distributor about the unit and specifically asked them if the unit was a demo unit and although I didn't hear the conversation he said they told him it was not a demo unit. I agreed to take the auger, PUFF bit, the mounting system with the proper hoses and he has ordered a new hydraulic power unit for me. The dealer has been very helpful and offered to do whatever I wanted with the system. I decided to keep the auger, SSQA mount, PUFF bit, and wait for a new hydraulic power unit. Now, I am having second thoughts about the auger and PUFF bit as they don't have the look of a factory painted unit. This is a very expensive unit with a good reputation and I paid a substantial amount down at the time of my order. It appears that all of the components have been painted a flat black without any of the yellow trim that all of them had at the farm show.

View attachment 417219

Wow. This is not how you compete with danuser.

They have made my decision easier. I was considering them, a local dealer was very eager to sell me their stuff. Calling me every day. I'll pass Belltec. If I buy an auger drive, it will be a danuser.

 

[KYDan]

I checked them all out at the NFM and the Belltech was impressive. I watched the video of it going through rock. I also looked at Land Pride and Danuser. I am familiar with Danuser and have several Land Pride attachments and they have served me well. Belltec is a reputable company as far as I could tell and the fellows at the show were very knowledgeable. I was walking back and forth and gathering information from all of them. The Belltech was the most impressive and the most expensive, but it seemed to fit the bill perfectly for my needs. I am sticking with it if they deal squarely with me and I hope to put it into service in the near future. They assured me at the show that it would work fine with my tractor and loader. I have installed a Land Pride 3rd function remote and I am anticipating to begin drilling (augering?) in the near future. I was up front with my dealings and expect the same from the seller. I guess I should have waited and gone to the local dealer rather than order it at the show. But, everything I was comparing was there and everyone was very helpful and I based my decision upon what I gleaned from everyone there and this seemed to suit my needs the best. It was a learning process for me with GPM rates and pressure, heat issues with hydraulics, etc. I try to be informed and make astute decisions based upon available information. I do believe Belltech is a quality product and a reputable company, but I will reserve further comment until this situation plays out.