I dont understand my PTO and how it is supposed to work...

[k0ua]

I have often wondered how long these PTO brakes remain in working order when used with these high inertia loads.

 

[DK35vince]

I have often wondered how long these PTO brakes remain in working order when used with these high inertia loads.

You can put an overrunning PTO clutch on the tractor and it wouldn't wear on the PTO brake when winding down.
SpeeCo Over-running Clutch Adapter, Male Spline 1-1/8 in. x 6 - Tractor Supply Co.
I have had 1 of these on my tractor for years.
My tractor has the PTO brake and the overrun clutch lets my brush mower wind down from any speed with no wear on the brake

 

[Texwing]

You can put an overrunning PTO clutch on the tractor and it wouldn't wear on the PTO brake when winding down.
SpeeCo Over-running Clutch Adapter, Male Spline 1-1/8 in. x 6 - Tractor Supply Co.
I have had 1 of these on my tractor for years.
My tractor has the PTO brake and the overrun clutch lets my brush mower wind down from any speed with no wear on the brake

Thanks, how did it behave before you put the over running clutch adapter, did you get a sense the tractor PTO brake was really working to stop a high inertia load like a brush hog?

 

[DK35vince]

Thanks, how did it behave before you put the over running clutch adapter, did you get a sense the tractor PTO brake was really working to stop a high inertia load like a brush hog?

I put the over run clutch on 13 or 14 years ago when the tractor was new, so I really can't say.
One of the main reasons I put on the over running clutch was because due to the PTO brake I could not turn the tractor PTO shaft by hand to line up the splines when hooking up the drive shaft on attachments.
It made hooking up tiller, mowers, Etc. difficult IMO.
So I put on the over running clutch.
Now I can turn the PTO shaft backwards by hand and hooking up PTO driven attachments is a whole lot easier.

 

[RoyJackson]

I have often wondered how long these PTO brakes remain in working order when used with these high inertia loads.

They'll last a long time if you reduce the engine RPM to an idle (for 15-20 seconds) before disengaging the PTO.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Your baler does have an over running clutch. All Deere and NH balers I have ever seen have one so that shouldn't be a worry. Also, just an FYI, a baler is one piece of equipment that is important to run at exactly 540rpms, for proper feeding and tying. Sure it may work at lower RPMs, but its not really meant to.

As for the PTO brake, lots of tractors with hydraulically engaged independent PTOs have them. We have a 2550 Deere (65hp) and it has one as does my IH 454 (40hp). The difference is these both use a lever to engage the PTO and you can feather a load to get it started. As mentioned, start and stop the PTO just above idle, which should be done with any tractor regardless of the PTO type.


That said, I would not run a baler with a compact tractor, I think you've gotten lucky on your Kubota so far. The PTO driveline is just not made for it and you will eventually have a failure. We tried running a Deere 337 square baler with a 4400 Deere CUT a few times and it broke either the flex coupling in the PTO driveline or something in the clutch. It would occasionally make a clattering sound with the PTO running and eventually got to the point the PTO would come on by itself or fail to shut off (clutch pack failure is my guess).

Honestly a 40-50hp farm tractor (5000 series Deere for example) is about the minimum for running a square baler with any efficiency and reliability.

 

[Texwing]

That said, I would not run a baler with a compact tractor, I think you've gotten lucky on your Kubota so far. The PTO driveline is just not made for it and you will eventually have a failure. We tried running a Deere 337 square baler with a 4400 Deere CUT a few times and it broke either the flex coupling in the PTO driveline or something in the clutch. It would occasionally make a clattering sound with the PTO running and eventually got to the point the PTO would come on by itself or fail to shut off (clutch pack failure is my guess).

Well, its hard to argue with your field experience, but when running the NH 277 Baler with my Kubota HST3710, i just don't get the impression its hard on the tractor. Is it the reciprocating motion of the hay Ram that is supposedly hammering the PTO drive line? I thought the point of the flywheel was to even that out. In any case, the JD 4500 is actually a bit heavier tractor. I really have not paid much attention to "compact tractor" designation, are they somehow built lighter duty than other machines? I appreciate the heads up,but frankly it the big bush hog whacking stuff and shearing pin that scares me a lot more than the baler, but maybe i Have it wrong...

Honestly a 40-50hp farm tractor (5000 series Deere for example) is about the minimum for running a square baler with any efficiency and reliability.[/QUOTE]

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Some time ago, right here on TBN, a guy puked the pto drive line baleing hay with an old baler in front of his Kubota compact. Kubota would NOT war the drive line, as they said it was never designed to run a baler...

Kubota says, he should have had an "M" series tractor, as they are designed to be farm tractors...

SR

 

[Verticaltrx]

Well, its hard to argue with your field experience, but when running the NH 277 Baler with my Kubota HST3710, i just don't get the impression its hard on the tractor. Is it the reciprocating motion of the hay Ram that is supposedly hammering the PTO drive line? I thought the point of the flywheel was to even that out. In any case, the JD 4500 is actually a bit heavier tractor. I really have not paid much attention to "compact tractor" designation, are they somehow built lighter duty than other machines? I appreciate the heads up,but frankly it the big bush hog whacking stuff and shearing pin that scares me a lot more than the baler, but maybe i Have it wrong...

It is the lunging motion of the baler driveline that is hard on the tractors PTO. Yes, the flywheel smooths it out some, but you'll still notice the rpm ticking up and down on the tractor a little with the baler running. Basically with every stroke of the plunger it is loading then quickly unloading the drive line which creates a hammering action. Think about it this way: the plunger is moving along pushing hay into the bale chamber, as it gets near the end of the stroke is suddenly has to also compact the hay, which takes full power, then, almost instantly it is on the return stroke with no load. This motion repeated about once every second all afternoon long which is why you want a stout driveline. The flywheel helps some but there is only so much it can do. As mentioned above, running a square baler was never in the design parameters when they were engineering and building these compact tractors. A rotary mower is a more constant load, even when hammering brush and small trees.

The 4000 series (even the new ones with 60+ hp) are still compact tractors. Park one side by side with a 5000 series and you'll see the considerable differences in the size of the transmission and rear end. Same with a Kubota Grand L/MX (which utilize compact tractor driveline) vs a M series.

 

[Texwing]

It is the lunging motion of the baler driveline that is hard on the tractors PTO.

Well, OK. Now to venture off into the theoretical of which of my three tractors I should use to run the baler, all off which fall into the same "easy to carry on trailer" size range.

A. The 1999 Kubota hydro HST3710 roughly 38 hp with live pro
B. the 2000 Deere 4500 gear shift 39 hp with the much discussed independent pro
3. The wild card 1961 Ferguson f40 with continental 35hp gas engine and live pto. Its resume include:
a. least valuable B. appears indestructible, despite numerous attempts by PO to kill it

thanks, i welcome the inputs.

By the way, I am baling just 12 acres x 3 times a year = 36 acres, maybe 700 bales.