John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this?

   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #1  

torchrider

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New High-Tech Farm Equipment Is a Nightmare for Farmers | WIRED

Please excuse the formatting.

I squatted down in the dirt and took stock of my inadequate tools. Over my left shoulder a massive John Deere tractor loomed. I came here to fix that tractor. So far, things weren稚 going as planned.
I知 a computer programmer by training, and a repairman by trade. Ten years ago, I started iFixit, an online, DIY community that teaches people to repair what they own. Repair is what I do, and that I was being rebuffed by a tractor was incredibly frustrating.
I tossed my wrenches and screwdrivers. The conventional tools of my trade had no power here. This job called for something different. Armed with wire, alligator clips, a handful of connectors, and a CANbus reader, I launched myself back into the cab of the tractor. Once more into the breach, dear friends!
The family farmer who owns this tractor is a friend of mine. He just wanted a better way to fix a minor hydraulic sensor. Every time the sensor blew, the onboard computer would shut the tractor down. It takes a technician at least two days to order the part, get out to the farm, and swap out the sensor. So for two days, Dave痴 tractor lies fallow. And so do his fields.
Dave asked me if there was some way to bypass a bum sensor while waiting for the repairman to show up. But fixing Dave痴 sensor problem required fiddling around in the tractor痴 highly proprietary computer system葉he tractor痴 engine control unit (tECU): the brains behind the agricultural beast.
One hour later, I hopped back out of the cab of the tractor. Defeated. I was unable to breach the wall of proprietary defenses that protected the tECU like a fortress. I couldn稚 even connect to the computer. Because John Deere says I can稚.
Farming Goes High Tech
Dave is a DIY kind of guy. But Dave would like to do more than just change his tractor痴 oil. He壇 like to be able to modify the engine timing. He壇 like to harvest the information that his tractor collects to learn more about how his crops grow. He壇 like to troubleshoot error codes. Most of all, he壇 like to be able to repair his equipment himself*ecause it痴 what he痴 been doing all his life.
In the tech industry, we tend to talk about the exploding Maker Movement as if tinkering is something new. In fact, it痴 as old as dirt: farmers have been making, building, rebuilding, hacking, and tinkering with their equipment since chickens were feral. I致e seen farmers do with rusty harvesters and old welders what modern Makers do with Raspberry Pis and breadboards. There痴 even a crowdsourced magazine, Farm Show, that痴 catalogued thousands of clever farming inventions over the past three decades.
Of course, the world is changing, and that痴 especially true in the world of agriculture. Most problems can稚 be solved with duct tape and baling wire anymore. Regulations are stricter, agribusiness is more consolidated, resources are more scarce, and equipment is infinitely more complicated and proprietary. Small family farmers like Dave face challenges that even the most industrious Maker would find hard to 塗ack.

What used to be done by hand is now managed at scale by giant machine. And that equipment is expensive容quivalent to the price of a small house (Dave痴 mid-ranged tractor is worth over $100,000). New, elaborate computer systems afford the kind of precision and predictability that farmers 20 years ago couldn稚 have even imagined. But they致e also introduced new problems.
High-Tech Tractors Are Increasingly a Liability
Aside from using it, there痴 not much you can do with modern ag equipment. When it breaks or needs maintenance, farmers are dependent on dealers and manufacturer technicians* hard pill to swallow for farmers, who have been maintaining their own equipment since the plow.
甜DIY repair] is cheaper than calling out the technician. But that information is just not out there, Dave explained to me.
The cost and hassle of repairing modern tractors has soured a lot of farmers on computerized systems altogether. In a September issue of Farm Journal, farm auction expert Greg Peterson noted that demand for newer tractors was falling. Tellingly, the price of and demand for older tractors (without all the digital bells and whistles) has picked up. *s for the simplicity, you致e all heard the chatter, Machinery Pete wrote. 典here痴 an increasing number of farmers placing greater value on acquiring older simpler machines that don稚 require a computer to fix.
The problem is that farmers are essentially driving around a giant black box outfitted with harvesting blades. Only manufacturers have the keys to those boxes. Different connectors are needed from brand to brand, sometimes even from model to model曜ust to talk to the tECU. Modifications and troubleshooting require diagnostic software that farmers can稚 have. Even if a farmer managed to get the right software, calibrations to the tECU sometimes require a factory password. No password, no changes溶ot without the permission of the manufacturer.
John Deere, in particular, has been incredibly effective at limiting access to its diagnostic software. Which is why I wouldn稚 have been able to tweak the programming on Dave痴 tractor, even if I had been able to hack together the right interface. John Deere doesn稚 want me to. The dealer-repair game is just too lucrative for manufacturers to cede any control back to farmers.
Hacking the Family Farm
After a second swear-word-inducing attempt to monkey around in the code that fuels Dave痴 computer, I started wondering how other farmers were dealing with the increasingly cloaked and proprietary nature of modern farming.
My failure with Dave痴 tractor got me fired up. I started lurking in ag forums, talking to my farmer friends, and hanging out in diesel repair shops. I found out that farmers aren稚 taking the limitations lying down. There痴 a thriving grey-market for diagnostic equipment and proprietary connectors. Some farmers have even managed to get their hands on the software they need to re-calibrate and repair equipment on their own* laptop purchased from some nameless friend-of-a-friend with the software already loaded on it. There are even ways to get around the factory passwords that block access to the tECU to effect repairs.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #2  
You said a lot about what is simple and quite clear. Why even bother mentioning JD? It's everywhere. Just look at your vehicle. Or the computer you are using!

Sure, there may be some protectionist behavior on the part of the OEM. On the other hand, this stuff is far too complex for the average joe to comprehend. And even if he had access to do fairly simple things, what about the possibility of destroying the equipment by touching something else? Then there would be liability issues.

So although I don't like loosing control over what I own, I understand it.

What urks me to no end is manufacturers of commercial two way radios for instance offer models with varying channels and features. They are all the same identical radios, firmware and hardware, just programmed differently. You pay so much more for a technician to press a few buttons making your radio sixteen channel as opposed to two! Yet they pretend it's a different radio and give it a different model number.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #3  
You're whining about the state-of-the art. Doesn't matter if it's tractors, automobiles, or cameras - they all have computers. They're all proprietary, and the manufacturer doesn't want you mucking around in their programming as it has the potential to cause catastrophic damage to the machine and/or computer system.

They lock you out on purpose to protect themselves from people like you who want to jerry-rig a system and partially defeat the equipment's monitoring systems - and then complain when something fails and "I didn't know about it."

You want state-of-the art GPS attached to a tractor that allows you to farm in climate controlled comfort - the trade-off is technology.

Stop complaining. Technology isn't going away - machines are going to get more complicated as more things are computer controlled.

You don't like it, your friend doesn't like it? Can't hardly think of a line of work that doesn't include computer controlled "something."

The latest Stihl chainsaw I purchased now has a computer controlled carburetor - I can't adjust it at all. The upside? It works at altitudes of 10,000 feet without me having to fiddle with the H/L and idle adjustments.

You don't like it - start buying used equipment that's 25+ years old. Then you can tinker around with it all you want.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #4  
that is the exact reason my nephews put $27k into a JD 4450 with 22,000 hours on it. They want a handy tractor to use around the farm and do not need all the electronics. it has a good cab with climate control and it does them just fine. They have a tractor for seeding and applicator work that has the GPS on it and all the other bells and whistles, but they only have the one. They have other equipment that they would like to trade off but keep it going as is for this exact reason. When the tractor companies start realizing that they are missing out on selling new equipment they will make some changes. Until they do there will be more backlash.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #5  
that is the exact reason my nephews put $27k into a JD 4450 with 22,000 hours on it. They want a handy tractor to use around the farm and do not need all the electronics. it has a good cab with climate control and it does them just fine. They have a tractor for seeding and applicator work that has the GPS on it and all the other bells and whistles, but they only have the one. They have other equipment that they would like to trade off but keep it going as is for this exact reason. When the tractor companies start realizing that they are missing out on selling new equipment they will make some changes. Until they do there will be more backlash.

No, what will actually happen is the farmers that don't want the technology will start to die off and the younger generation will embrace it. It's the way of incrementalism, the current generation resists but the next generation has known nothing else so they embrace.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #6  
It should come down to is the factory locked tractor more productive over it's lifetime including downtime waiting for factory technicians then a similar tractor that has no locks on the computer? Sounds like there is room for competition here but the fly in the ointment is the government regs. that have to be met even if the owner has had access to the computer and changed things that might produce more power at the expense of more pollution. That is certainly not going to happen on new production so the competition will become my locked tractor is more productive then your locked tractor and we even fix it within hours or deliver you a full sized replacement while we,( not you), wait for parts.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #7  
Guess we can go back to the times the farmers were buying the oil pull tractors and some opted to keep their team of horses. And life goes on and on with or without us. ;)
And for the young people who have a knack for computers and electronics, and how they work and are controlled, they will find jobs waiting that will pay pretty well. Those that don't will get the jobs moving pieces in a factory or shoveling dirt (or just stand in the long but many lines handing out money and food). This is all very generalized, but changes happen and people adapt. Some even adapt quickly...
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #9  
Wadaya all think about this??


I have been considering getting an older larger tractor for my jobs. The lack of computer control looks more appealing every day. While I have had very few problems with my Deere tractor the computer was the issue and I had to have the dealer make the repairs and reprogram as it was beyond my abilities.
 
   / John Deere Buyers - What are your thoughts on this? #10  
Quote Originally Posted by doxford jim View Post

Read what John Deere thinks about tractor owners these days.

We Can't Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership | WIRED


Gives onw pause for thought after paying out big bucks for the tractor - arrogance at it's worst.
Wadaya all think about this??

I think they've totally (and purposely) misread and misinterpreted what JD is saying. JD owns the copyright to the software. This is no different than Microsoft and Windows, or Apple and any of their devices - or any company that generates software as a product - or writing of any type.

You don't own the copyright to a book you've purchased and there are strict rules on how you can use the material contained in the copyrighted book.

JD gives you a license to use the software as part of the product you've purchased. Ford, GM, BMW, Audi, etc. give you the exact same type of license to use the software contained in the vehicle when it is delivered to you.

It's funny that people don't (anymore) want to make hacks and changes to the operating systems in their computers because they've come to realize that it's beyond their capability - and even the capability of experienced software engineers who haven't been part of the product development.

Vehicles, including tractors, are no different. I wouldn't be surprised to find out there are hundreds of thousands of lines of code in the different computers and controls systems on a modern tractor.

Just exactly HOW do you get into the system, know where to make a change and not have it affect something else that is dependent upon that piece of software for its operation?

In the mid-1990's I worked on a landmine finding system for the US Army Night Vision Laboratory. I worked on the infrared and visible light camera systems. I did the hardware and software engineer did the image processing software. The image processing system had a "small" amount of software - 10,000 lines of code.

It would have been laughable to let any other software engineer work on the software cold as they would not have understood the reasons for specific things done in the software.

It's equally as laughable that someone not trained in John Deere software (many different versions) could just "pop-in" make some changes, and get on without seriously mucking something up.
 
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