Marines Going to Hollow Point Bullets

[RSKY]

There has been some discussion on this in the past so I thought I would post this. StrategyPage is a military website run by military HISTORIANS. Very well done and very accurate.

Copied and pasted from StrategyPage.com


SOCOM And Marines Adopt Hollow Point
by James Dunnigan
April 26, 2015

The U.S. Marine Corps is going to switch to hollow point rifle and pistol ammunition. Actually SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the Marines have been using hollow tip bullets for over a decade, mostly in Afghanistan and, for SOCOM, worldwide. This use of hollow point, rather than full metal jacket ammo, began with pistols. SOCOM experimented and found that a full-metal jacket 9mm round has a one-shot stop rate (OSSR) of 70 percent, while the best 115-grain 9mm hollow point has a one-shot stop rate of 91 percent. OSSR is largely just a way to measure the relative stopping power of different (in terms of caliber, design and weight) bullets and forcing the target to drop because of death or incapacitation. Much depends on where you shoot someone and SOCOM found that the highest OSSR was achieved with a .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol firing hollow point bullets. That gives you something like .99 OSSR and the OSSR stays high no matter where you hit someone. Basic OSSR is calculated assuming a hit in the center of mass. It was long known that hollow point does more damage but lots of battlefield experience since September 11, 2001 made it clear that hollow point ammo was a key tool in limiting the effectiveness of Islamic terrorists.

There is a popular and long-standing myth that hollow point bullets (that expand on hitting and create larger and more damaging wounds) are illegal according to the Geneva Convention. That treaty does not mention bullets. The later 1899 Hague Convention does and it prohibits some types of hollow point bullets. The U.S. never signed the Hague Convention and was never bound by it. But in deference to allies who did sign American forces have rarely used hollow point bullets. One frequent exception was for certain types of commando operations, like hostage rescue. No allies ever complained about this.

Shortly after 2001 SOCOM and the marines, responding to complaints from troops that the standard 5.56 and 9mm full metal jacket bullets were not doing enough damage to stop fanatical Taliban fighters, began issuing hollow point bullets and troops were satisfied with the improved stopping power. As a result the Marines are going to switch over to the MK318 hollow point (or "open tip") round for its assault rifles and machine-guns. The existing M855 full metal jacket rounds will be used up in training exercises. SOCOM has also switched to hollow point for pistols (9mm and 11.4mm) and rifles. The army is watching all this carefully.

 

[RSKY]

I have long been a fan of the 9mm BUT,... one shot stop ratio of 99 percent with a 45 cal hollow point?????

 

[RDrancher]

I'm for anything that gives our side the advantage, but I believe the US military has been using gelatin to evaluate bullet performance for quite awhile. The old "One Stop Shot" theory is a bit flawed. The .45 "That gives you something like .99 OSSR and the OSSR stays high no matter where you hit someone." Uh...okay. Perhaps the author injected a bit of his own beliefs into the article?

 

[s219]

I have long been a fan of the 9mm BUT,... one shot stop ratio of 99 percent with a 45 cal hollow point?????

There is a good bit more energy in the 45 bullet. 45 loads typically carry 2-3X more energy at the muzzle than a 9mm load. That really matters in terms of both energy at the target and energy in vital zones at a distance. Both give advantages.

I don't know what type of statistics model they are using for their OSSR percentages, but I suspect the 45 at 99% is significantly more repeatable/reliable than the 9mm at 91%, just in terms of performance on paper. There is a trade off in fatigue with the 45 though, and someone firing hundreds of shots in a battle situation may do better with a 9mm in the real world.

 

[texasjohn]

Interesting story...agreed, my own experience with hollow points is that they do more damage. But, this is only anecdotal and based on hunting targets, not people in vests and carrying equipment and vests which must be penetrated. So, one wonders if "fmj" ammo will soon be augmented by military hollowpoint in ammo stores.

 

[oldballs]

My only experience with military, was in basic training. But seems to me that pistols like the 45 or 9mm are for close range fighting, such that knock down is king. And that one would not be firing hundreds of shots. I'd take the 45 cal. But I trust the Marines to make the right decision.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

That's very interesting. I had heard at one time, that all of the Special Operation units in our military used the .45 auto, because of it's superiority to the 9mm, although I can't confirm it's veracity. The 9mm has long been known to be inferior to the .45 (e.g., the Miami Shootout, where it was blamed for the death of a couple of FBI agents), and according to the S&W forum, the 10mm was developed in response. The 10mm proved to be too much of a beast for the limp-of-wrist and female agents, so the .40 S&W was developed, dropping the 10mm entirely. I'm a bit surprised that they are now going to hollow points. That opens up a whole new ball game of man-killer ammo that's available and under development.

 

[Bird]

There always has been, and probably always will be, different opinions about weapons and ammo, just as with most other things in this old world. When I started on the police department in 1964, hollow point ammo was prohibited. But long before I retired, that changed, and the ammo that was issued was hollow point. When we changed, it was due to the Dallas Medical Examiners office testing of different ammo using the same gel targets that the military used at that time.

 

[dmccarty]

There is a trade off in fatigue with the 45 though, and someone firing hundreds of shots in a battle situation may do better with a 9mm in the real world.

Depends on the pistol and load. I have fired hundreds of hot 45 rounds in a short period of time and not been tired. In combat, firing hundreds of pistol rounds is not likely to happen. The pistol is a defense weapon and the soldier/marine will have ended the fight or have died well before a few dozen rounds are fired. In any case, hundreds of pistol rounds are not carried. If the situation has gotten so bad that one has to turn to the pistol, there are likely to be some rifles laying around that can be used once the immediate need for the pistol is over.

The 45 ACP was chosen for use because of the fighting in the Philippine Islands around 1900 against the Moros. The Moros are Muslims and not the same ethnicity as the Filipinos. The Moros did not get along with the Filipinos, nor the Spanish, and when the US took over in the PI from Spain, the Moros did not like the US. The Spanish would not venture beyond their fortified port cities and the Moros controlled the interiors of the Southern PI. The US was not having any of that and eventually defeated the Moros but the fighting was long and hard. The Moros would rush soldiers and kill them with knives, Bolos, and often cut off the soldier head in the process. This was done not only to kill the soldier but to get his rifle. Many US soldiers and more Moro's died in this way. The 38 six shooter was did not have the stopping power needed to take out attackers, especially if there were multiple Moros which was often the case. Thus the 45 was picked.

Fast forward 100 years and the Moros are back to there age old antics in the south of the PIs. They have multiple factions and kidnapping foreigners, especially westerners, is a big money maker for them. It does look like the main Moro faction might sign a peace treaty but after a major raid a few months ago that killed a bunch of police officers, Moros, and a target of the raid, the process has slowed. I would think the peace agreement will eventually take hold since it is mostly what the Moro's want. But time will tell. They seem to cycle through the same pattern every century or so.

The 1901/1903 Springfield was also picked with the Moro experience in mind. Docter Laguarde(sp) wrote a book on firearm injury and treatment back around 1900 and he was also involved in picking which calibers to use in the weapons He called the new rifle rounds sub calibers because they were smaller than the .45 caliber rifle rounds then in use in the US. The old rifle bullets were big and heavy, I think they were an ounce in size and were made of soft lead so when they hit a body part the caused quite a bit of damage. The also carried more dirt into the wound causing infections. The new sub calibers round did NOT cause as much damage as the older bullets because they were jacketed, did not expand on impact, and were smaller. As a side note, they treated infections with honey or sugar, a technique used by the Greeks and Romans. Sugar will dry out the wound and minimizes/prevent infections.

Later,
Dan

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Interesting. I read somewhere that the Springfield development was accelerated as a result of the experience of Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders. The were met with the latest Mauser rifles, which proved to be superior to what ever they were carrying; the 30/40 Kraig I believe.

As a side note, they treated infections with honey or sugar, a technique used by the Greeks and Romans. Sugar will dry out the wound and minimizes/prevent infections.

The info on sugar is interesting also. As you know, sugar is preservative and except for some molds, microorganisms will not grow in it. My Aunt had her finger chopped about 3/4 of the way off by her brother (holding a piece of kindling for him no less) when she was a little girl. My Grandmother bandaged it up in a mixture of turpentine and sugar. My Mother said that when they took the bandage off, it was perfectly healed, no infection ever. The end of her finger remained about 10 degrees askew for the rest of her life though.