Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions

/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #21  
I have a grd rod at the meter, one at the tv tower, one at the well, one for the shed elec box and have not had a problem.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #22  
I posted this a few years back about what happens when a neutral goes "open". Hopefully this diagram will help people visualize what goes on.

For purposes of clarification, we'll leave the earth ground out of the picture. Once the neutral opens, the first load when turned on won't work and every load on that same hot leg will also not work. As soon as a load on the other hot leg is turned on, you have created and completed a series circuit. As you turn on more and more individual loads, you create a complex series and parallel load situation so again for purposes of clarification lets consider just two loads, one on each hot leg. The thing is, with a series connection, the current flowing through every load is exactly the same. Has to be.

As you see in the example, with a load on each hotleg, the open neutral suddenly places those two loads in series. What we want to calculate is the voltage potential (voltage drop) across each load. Another given is, the total of all the voltage drops across all the loads adds up to the total applied voltage. Has to be. In an open neutral situation, that would be 240 volts.

Volts (voltage drop) equals amps times resistance. Again, for purposes of clarification lets assume the resistance of each load remains the same with respect to what it was in a normal situation, (in real life it may or may not but for our purposes here, it doesn't matter) Going back to our power equation, you can calculate the voltage drop across each load. In a normal situation, each load sees only that current flow allowed by the resistance of the individual loads, and the voltage remains constant. In an open neutral situation, the current flow through every load is the same and the individual voltage drops across each load are what fluctuates.

As you can see, the loads with the higher resistance are the ones that see the higher voltage drop across them and vice versa. This also means that if both loads have exactly the same resistance, everything will appear to be normal. It also means that as more and more loads with different resistances are turned on, the voltage drop across every one of them will change, but the total of all of them must still add up to the applied voltage - 240 volts - but each individual load sees a different voltage drop across it.

1099596162_4.jpg

Thanks, you did a great job explaining it. And I'll add that in an open neutral, provider-side situation, the consumer's neutral becomes hot relative to true earth ground. Scary stuff especially after tree limbs and such hit the entrance line. There may appear to be no damage, but the neutral connection could be compromised and needs to be tested by qualified personnel.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #23  
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #24  
We can discuss it, if you're game:) My understanding is the reference is invoked when setting up a grounding electrode system. Which means the rebar must be bonded to a suitable ground source prior to pouring the concrete. I think it is a good idea and is illustrated here: Grounding vs Bonding - Part 6 of 12 | Bonding & Grounding content from Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine

Other than having to be a minimum of 20' long and greater than 1/2" in diameter all that's required is being encased in greater than 2" of concrete. There's specific requirement for the concrete/earth contact and placement of the rebar in the concrete but I don't see anywhere where it says the rebar is required to be "bonded to a suitable ground source prior to pouring the concrete". I have read where if you have a metal underground water pipe, a concrete encased electrode (typically re-bar), and structural steel that qualifies as a grounding electrode (properly connected to earth), they shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. This makes sense as you do want all grounds to be at the same potential in regards to earth and each other.(http://www.inspectionbureau.com/pdf/Grounding Electrode Systems '11.pdf)
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #25  
If I ever pour another slab I'll bond it. The thing is here we have periods of drought so severe that the concrete actually separates from contact with the earth. The poster said the concrete contractor left a rebar exposed and he tied into that. So his connection is not concrete encased. I'm old school and 250-A (3) is an addendum. I would love to get Megger readings on those grounds in say- 10-15 years- if I live that long. Hey, BTW, did you ever get a new TV?:)
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #26  
Separate your phone ground from your electric meter ground.Phone companies attach to your electric meter ground to save $$.We got hit 3 times by lighting 1 year.I separated the phone ground driving a separate 6ft ground rod.Never been struck since.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #27  
Separate your phone ground from your electric meter ground.Phone companies attach to your electric meter ground to save $$.We got hit 3 times by lighting 1 year.I separated the phone ground driving a 6ft ground rod.Never been struck since.

Actually, phone companies do that by law (NEC). All utilities grounds should be bonded at the service entrance. It is possible that the phone company did not properly bond to the electrical ground in which case yes your ground rod will perform better than what they did. Still needs to be bonded to prevent difference in potential and protect phone co. personnel.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #28  
Actually, phone companies do that by law (NEC). All utilities grounds should be bonded at the service entrance. It is possible that the phone company did not properly bond to the electrical ground in which case yes your ground rod will perform better than what they did. Still needs to be bonded to prevent difference in potential and protect phone co. personnel.
I am a retired electric lineman(37 years) so yes I understand the bonding issue.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #29  
Grounding to the MGN is NEC code.
One of the problems with separate ground rods is Ground Rise Potential. Some very scary reading if you Google it.
GRP makes a "regular" lightning strike look like a little spark in a dark room.

Phil
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #30  
Got it. When stuff on both sides of the 240 is turned on, they become exposed to 240 through the neutral connection.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #31  
If I ever pour another slab I'll bond it. The thing is here we have periods of drought so severe that the concrete actually separates from contact with the earth. The poster said the concrete contractor left a rebar exposed and he tied into that. So his connection is not concrete encased. I'm old school and 250-A (3) is an addendum. I would love to get Megger readings on those grounds in say- 10-15 years- if I live that long. Hey, BTW, did you ever get a new TV?:)

Somehow I can't see a slab or grade beam separating from the earth...that would require gravity to cease.

The connection doesn't have to be concrete encased as per NEC 250.68(C)(3)

From What Is A 'Ufer' Ground? | EC Mag

Herbert G. Ufer was a vice president and engineer at Underwriters Laboratories who assisted the U.S. military with ground-resistance problems at installations in Arizona. Ufer's findings in the 1940s proved the effectiveness of concrete-encased grounding electrodes. The military required low-resistance (5 ohms or less) ground connections for lightning protection systems installed at its ammunition and pyrotechnic storage sites at the Navajo Ordnance Depot in Flagstaff and Davis-Monthan Air Force Base in Tucson. Ufer developed the initial design for a concrete-encased grounding electrode that consisted of 1/2 inch, 20-foot-long reinforcing bars placed within and near the bottom of 2-foot-deep concrete footings for the ammunition storage buildings. Test readings over a 20-year period revealed steady resistance values of 2 to 5 ohms, which satisfied the specifications of the U.S. government at that time.

Regarding my TV...http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/related-topics/338983-my-tv-has-died-post4166479.html#post4166479
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #32  
I am a retired electric lineman(37 years) so yes I understand the bonding issue.

I believe you. However, as a retired phone company worker I should tell you that tampering with the phone co. ground could cause someone some grief- such as service disconnection for ILU.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #33  
Somehow I can't see a slab or grade beam separating from the earth...that would require gravity to cease.

The connection doesn't have to be concrete encased as per NEC 250.68(C)(3)

From What Is A 'Ufer' Ground? | EC Mag



Regarding my TV...http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/related-topics/338983-my-tv-has-died-post4166479.html#post4166479

Come to Texas. If the intent is to have 20' of surface area contacting the earth and due to drought there is 6' of perimeter around the slab not even contacting the ground on a 40'x20' slab whatever ground you had is compromised.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #34  
Come to Texas. If the intent is to have 20' of surface area contacting the earth and due to drought there is 6' of perimeter around the slab not even contacting the ground on a 40'x20' slab whatever ground you had is compromised.

Is that statement based on you having meggered a Ufer ground under those conditions or is it just something you think is true?
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #35  
It is my learned opinion. I do not know the size of the structure that the test you cited was conducted upon. Wouldn't you agree that the bigger the slab the more moisture it can retain toward the center of said slab? For my own personal installations (which I still do selectively) I'll stick to an 8', 5/8" copper clad ground rod and/or cold water copper pipe. Gotta go weedeat. And congratulations on your new TV.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #36  
It is my learned opinion. I do not know the size of the structure that the test you cited was conducted upon. Wouldn't you agree that the bigger the slab the more moisture it can retain toward the center of said slab? For my own personal installations (which I still do selectively) I'll stick to an 8', 5/8" copper clad ground rod and/or cold water copper pipe. Gotta go weedeat. And congratulations on your new TV.

I agree there is very likely to be more moisture towards the center of a slab which would make a Ufer ground all that much more effective. Concrete absorbs moisture quickly and looses moisture very slowly. The mineral properties of concrete (lime and others) and their inherent pH means concrete has a supply of ions to conduct current.
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions
  • Thread Starter
#37  
All this NEC talk did nothing but confuse me lol. I still don't have a solution
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #38  
All this NEC talk did nothing but confuse me lol. I still don't have a solution

LOL! The solution is ground, and bond and then pray. Lightning is unpredictable and awesomely destructive. The best data centers go to extreme lengths to protect their machines and every now and then they still get zapped. In downtown areas with high-rise buildings there is what is known as a cone of protection. I'm guessing that doesn't help most of the members here.;)
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions #39  
In downtown areas with high-rise buildings there is what is known as a cone of protection.

A distant cousin of...

0688fe3.jpg
 
/ Storm scare....I need some thoughts/opinions
  • Thread Starter
#40  
LOL! The solution is ground, and bond and then pray. Lightning is unpredictable and awesomely destructive. The best data centers go to extreme lengths to protect their machines and every now and then they still get zapped. In downtown areas with high-rise buildings there is what is known as a cone of protection. I'm guessing that doesn't help most of the members here.;)

I'm not worried about appliances......I'm want to protect the home.
 

Marketplace Items

KIVEL 48" PALLET FORKS 3500 LB CAP (A60430)
KIVEL 48" PALLET...
2015 Chevrolet Impala Sedan (A59231)
2015 Chevrolet...
2004 DCT PUMP TRAILER (A58214)
2004 DCT PUMP...
2013 Freightliner Forest River 390BH 39ft. Class A Motorhome (A59231)
2013 Freightliner...
17101 (A55851)
17101 (A55851)
PREVIEW DATES AND TIMES (A61165)
PREVIEW DATES AND...
 
Top