Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[GManBart]

Torque requirements ? A natural aspirated gasser tractor engine has more torque per cubic inch than a diesel per cubic inch. Look at the JD 4020 specs for example . A lot of fuel? A modern direct injection gassed use a lot of fuel? Have you looked at the part load fuel consumption of Diesel engines .

We're talking about modern CUTs and SCUTs, not 45 year old 100hp Utility tractors.

 

[GManBart]

We have people here who do not understand the difference between light duty applications and heavy duty applications . Nor are they aware of direct injection gasoline engines, tied IV diesel emissions and glow plugs, 30,000psi injectors or pumps, egr valves, egr coolers , urea injection , particulate filter regeneration . They are thinking of carbureted gas engines with points vs an inline diesel with just a P pump and a turbo. With diesel costing 3/4 the price of gasoline .
A DI gasser will make just as much power per btu of fuel than a diesel.
Part throttle, part load applications a gasser absolutely stomps all over a diesel's part load efficiency . That is why they are used in light highway vehicles.

Yes, you've repeatedly said compact tractors have light duty cycle engines, which is false...glad to see that clarified.

Last I knew, you haven't been able to provide any facts, much less data, from a direct injection gas engine used in a tractor, or one that would be suitable for such use, so you're either guessing or stating an opinion,but representing it as a fact.

The best Diesel engines are more efficient than the most efficient gas engines....period. Now that diesel is back to being the same price, or cheaper in most markets, the issue isn't all that complicated.

More efficient, with similar, or lower cost fuel means nobody is going to waste money building a gasser engine for a CUT or SCUT because it doesn't make sense. Then again, some folks here think they know more about this than the tractor manufacturers do...lol!

 

[hutchman]

Yes, you've repeatedly said compact tractors have light duty cycle engines, which is false...glad to see that clarified.

Last I knew, you haven't been able to provide any facts, much less data, from a direct injection gas engine used in a tractor, or one that would be suitable for such use, so you're either guessing or stating an opinion,but representing it as a fact.

The best Diesel engines are more efficient than the most efficient gas engines....period. Now that diesel is back to being the same price, or cheaper in most markets, the issue isn't all that complicated.

More efficient, with similar, or lower cost fuel means nobody is going to waste money building a gasser engine for a CUT or SCUT because it doesn't make sense. Then again, some folks here think they know more about this than the tractor manufacturers do...lol!

... and ignoring the fact GDI (high efficiency gas engines) produce finer particulates (aka - worse on lungs than diesel particulate) and are subject to upcoming stricter EPA emission regs ... the outcome will be gas & diesel engines will both be wearing similar emissions technology (which will narrow the price gap between the two). GDI's are where TDI's used to be back in 1986.

 

[AxleHub]

Are you living in 1975 or 2015 ?

Its not I talking probabilities.

You claim gas and diesel can be hoghly competitive in torque and constant power demand for the same size. But your facts don't demonstrate your claims.

So lets use as close an example as I can draw.

Kubota makes 2 commercial quality riding tractors a 20 hp gr2020 gas and a 21 hp gr2120 diesel. Same size of frame . . 1 hp different in size. Both new very current technology engines.

Yet the gr2020 can only support a 48 inch deck while the gr2120 supports a 48 or 54 inch deck. Both are 4wd. The gr2120 produces more torque and a higher duty cycle . . . hence the 48 AND 54 inch deck options.

My point is . . . Your post are theoretical . . Not historically factual.

Now my Massey GC1715 is tier 4 already and the fuel consumption and power are both far far far better than I was prepared for or expecting. I expected a 25% fuel reduction for the same job . . . and I'm at about 50% fuel reduction compared to a current gas engine of similar size.

 

[mo1]

The GR2120's engine has 25% more displacement- 778 cc vs. 624 cc. I would absolutely expect the 25% larger displacement engine to have more torque and be able to do more work. A gasoline engine with a similar displacement as the diesel would be a better match, such as Kohler's ECV749, which is a 749 cc EFI straight twin with 9.1:1 compression that makes 26.5 hp.

 

[AxleHub]

The GR2120's engine has 25% more displacement- 778 cc vs. 624 cc. I would absolutely expect the 25% larger displacement engine to have more torque and be able to do more work. A gasoline engine with a similar displacement as the diesel would be a better match, such as Kohler's ECV749, which is a 749 cc EFI straight twin with 9.1:1 compression that makes 26.5 hp.

But if the fuel efficiency of the GR2120 is ALREADY considerably better than the GR2020 . . . Imagine what it would be compared to the ECV749 engine.

Gas engines are superior to diesel engines when speed is the goal . . which is why cars, outboards, motorcycles, atvs and small engines are gas. But IMO when power is the goal and long term durability under power draw . . Diesel has the advantage and a considerable fuel efficiency improvement over gas. Thats why tractors, construction equopment, semi and hauling trucks of all sizes are diesel. Speed and weight versus power, efficiency, and durability.

 

[buickanddeere]

... and ignoring the fact GDI (high efficiency gas engines) produce finer particulates (aka - worse on lungs than diesel particulate) and are subject to upcoming stricter EPA emission regs ... the outcome will be gas & diesel engines will both be wearing similar emissions technology (which will narrow the price gap between the two). GDI's are where TDI's used to be back in 1986.

The upcoming regs by the EPA do-gooders as you said will impact anything that resembles a machine and burns some sort of fuel. The average Joe puttzing around with their side by side ATV, SCUT, CUT, residential lawn mower etc in light duty service will be better served with a DI gasser. The lighter gasoline with a higher ratio of hydrogen vs carbon compared to diesel fuel will make CO2 compliance easier.
No question in high powered heavy duty service the diesel does still win. In 1972 when there was absolutely no contest between the gas and diesel. However in 2015 the DI gasser has narrowed the gap over the Tier IV diesel. Shudder to think the $$$ required to keep an aging Tier IV diesel compliant.
Still some people see only gas vs diesel and compare a 1972 gasser with a 2006 diesel. It's 2015 and there is a such a thing as light duty and heavy duty service.
If the whole world had to meet Tier IV diesel and the whole world had to pay more per gallon for diesel than gasoline. Vehicles and equipment would look much different.
It's a world market but many folk forget to look past the closest border.

 

[GManBart]

The upcoming regs by the EPA do-gooders as you said will impact anything that resembles a machine and burns some sort of fuel. The average Joe puttzing around with their side by side ATV, SCUT, CUT, residential lawn mower etc in light duty service will be better served with a DI gasser.

I don't know why you insist on repeating this fallacy. Many people running SCUTs and CUTs are running at PTO speed for hours on end. That is not a light-duty cycle any way, shape or form...unless someone is biased and trying to win a debate with false "facts" which are really opinions, and preconceived notions.

No question in high powered heavy duty service the diesel does still win. In 1972 when there was absolutely no contest between the gas and diesel. However in 2015 the DI gasser has narrowed the gap over the Tier IV diesel. Shudder to think the $$$ required to keep an aging Tier IV diesel compliant.
Still some people see only gas vs diesel and compare a 1972 gasser with a 2006 diesel. It's 2015 and there is a such a thing as light duty and heavy duty service.
If the whole world had to meet Tier IV diesel and the whole world had to pay more per gallon for diesel than gasoline. Vehicles and equipment would look much different.
It's a world market but many folk forget to look past the closest border.

First off, Tier IV has no bearing upon the efficiency of the engine. It changes the cost to produce them, but not the amount of power they put out for a given amount of fuel. Second, the ONLY person here comparing 1972 diesel engines to anything else is you. Over and over you've made these ridiculous comparisons that have no bearing on what manufacturers are making today, or could make today if there was a business case for doing so.

Go find a modern DI gasser engine from a tractor, or similar machine, get some data from it, and then you'll have something worthy of comparison.

Oh wait, nobody makes that engine, do they? There's probably a good reason for that, and it's not because the manufacturers are trying to upset you.

 

[buickanddeere]

Go find a modern DI gasser engine from a tractor, or similar machine, get some data from it, and then you'll have something worthy of comparison.

Oh wait, nobody makes that engine, do they? There's probably a good reason for that, and it's not because the manufacturers are trying to upset you.

I explained to you why, it's not a level playing field world wide. If every country mandated Tier IV diesel and diesel cost more than gasoline . DI gassers would have a significant market. Are there people here unaware of the rest of the world outside the US borders ?
I also stated residential use which most CUT machines are operated under. A landscaper, construction company, chicken barn cleaner or golf course is a HD application, not light duty.
How do you propose reducing CO2 emissions without burning a "lighter" fuel ?

 

[terryknight]

I explained to you why, it's not a level playing field world wide. If every country mandated Tier IV diesel and diesel cost more than gasoline . DI gassers would have a significant market. Are there people here unaware of the rest of the world outside the US borders ?
I also stated residential use which most CUT machines are operated under. A landscaper, construction company, chicken barn cleaner or golf course is a HD application, not light duty.
How do you propose reducing CO2 emissions without burning a "lighter" fuel ?

couple things one "if" is a hypothetical and not actually the case. Sorry reality is not every country/government mandates tier IV and the cost of gas isn't always less than the cost of diesel; that is just the world we live in. two diesel engines already produce less CO2 than an equal displacement gas engine