Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[mo1]

But if the fuel efficiency of the GR2120 is ALREADY considerably better than the GR2020 . . . Imagine what it would be compared to the ECV749 engine.

Gas engines are superior to diesel engines when speed is the goal . . which is why cars, outboards, motorcycles, atvs and small engines are gas. But IMO when power is the goal and long term durability under power draw . . Diesel has the advantage and a considerable fuel efficiency improvement over gas. Thats why tractors, construction equopment, semi and hauling trucks of all sizes are diesel. Speed and weight versus power, efficiency, and durability.

Gasoline engines are also considerably less expensive to buy and their routine maintenance costs are lower than diesels, although the latter really only becomes very pronounced with much larger engines than in a SCUT/CUT. Whether or not you actually save any money in the long run in getting a diesel engine over a gasoline engine depends on the price differential, fuel consumption of the engine in gallons/hour, how many hours you put on the piece of equipment, and how long you keep the piece of equipment. It takes thousands of hours of operation to make up the cost of the diesel engine something like the Kubota GR when the overall fuel consumption rates are small and fuel cost differences are around a dollar an hour at current fuel prices. That's a whole lot different than a semi or twin screw dump truck (or a several hundred HP row-crop tractor) where the fuel cost differences would be about $50-75/hour between a diesel and a gasoline engine.

Your example of the Kubota GR21xx also brings up an important point in why diesels may seem more preferable than gassers in the same piece of equipment. A diesel engine is more expensive than a gasoline engine and the manufacturer will have a much easier time in getting people to shell out the extra cash if the buyer actually gets a larger/more powerful engine in the process. The GR's gasser is a smaller-displacement, lower-hp and lower-torque engine than the diesel Kubota specced to put in that unit. Kubota could have specced a smaller diesel with similar torque (but less HP)or a similar displacement (and less HP and torque) to the gasser, but it would likely sell relatively poorly compared to the more-powerful on all counts diesel they did spec. Look at 3/4 and 1-ton pickups' diesel engines. They sell well in no small part as they are considerably more powerful than the gasoline engines offered. Horsepower numbers are generally about the same as the largest gasser but there's twice as much torque and the engine as a result is a lot more powerful. Now compare that to the relatively anemic sales of the relatively anemic 3.0 L V6 VM Motori diesel in the Ram 1500. That engine is about as powerful as the base V6 but more expensive than any of the other engines (including the 5.7 L Hemi which is vastly more powerful), so it is JUST an "it gets better mileage" engine. Its sales are a tiny fraction of the total Ram 1500 units sold vs. the Cummins's share in the 2500 and 3500 units.

 

[AxleHub]

Gasoline engines are also considerably less expensive to buy and their routine maintenance costs are lower than diesels, although the latter really only becomes very pronounced with much larger engines than in a SCUT/CUT.

Mo1, you're like the carnival barker with the ring toss. You keep skipping around on topics to distract people from noticing you don't answer the points being made.

Now who believes that maintenance costs on comparable gas engines are considerably cheaper than diesel?

But you said "routine" because gas engines have considerably more maintenance needs than do diesels . . but not the oil changes and filter changes. The point IS NOT about routine maintenance . . the point is about all maintenance . . and gas engines have far greater maintenance costs and frequency than do diesels.

Now compare that to the relatively anemic sales of the relatively anemic 3.0 L V6 VM Motori diesel in the Ram 1500. That engine is about as powerful as the base V6 but more expensive than any of the other engines (including the 5.7 L Hemi which is vastly more powerful), so it is JUST an "it gets better mileage" engine. Its sales are a tiny fraction of the total Ram 1500 units sold vs. the Cummins's share in the 2500 and 3500 units.

Well rhe Ram you are refering to is the "eco diesel" typically using the 8 speed transmission. It gets an epa rating of 29 and a real world 31 while the hemi engine with passive drop offs gets 23 under perfect conditions.

So fuel costs are greatly different. Even more importantly . . you seemed to have forgotten to mention the "eco diesel" is a new product model while the hemi with 8 fpeed has been out since 2013 and then with av6 speed since 2012 and av5 speed since 2010 0r 2009. Of corse the brand new model undersells the hemi.

so now in the next post lets cover the debate head on.

 

[AxleHub]

Head on . . You dance around scuts maybe cuts maybe ??? You switch directions like that carny barker.

I have a tier 4 massey tractor with an Iseki 25 horse 3 cylinder diesel. I claim there isn't a gas engine by any major manufacturer in GENERAL PRODUCTION that matches the combination of

1. air quality
2. Fuel efficiency in a mowing or tractor based activity
3. That can deliver the steady power and quantity of life expectancy in hours of use in a mowing or tractor based activity

In a comparable price and sizing with similar maintenance costs and requirements.

But you keep saying there is a gas engine that is the match of my Iseki under the above conditions. So tell us what it is and where do we go to test one out?

 

[hutchman]

I have enough problems with gas in my small engines ... I sure don't want my tractor I'm wanting to last for a LONG time to suffer the same fate ... don't have to look too far to see its a headache not worth having if you can help it:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-damage-caused-ethanol-gasoline-new-post.html

Maintenance costs? Yea, I get that comment a lot with my car. Factory oil change interval for that is 10K miles on the oil. Do you do that in your gasser? And before the gubment changed the API spec to CJ4, it was REAL easy to use oil analysis to do extended intervals safely to 20K miles.

... and I don't have to buy any spark plugs (or plug wires etc.)

 

[mo1]

Mo1, you're like the carnival barker with the ring toss. You keep skipping around on topics to distract people from noticing you don't answer the points being made.

You don't address the major issue I brought up, which is overall cost of operation. You avoid it and only mention extreme long-tail longevity and specific fuel consumption. Maybe those are the most important to you, but there are certainly other considerations which may be more important for others.

Now who believes that maintenance costs on comparable gas engines are considerably cheaper than diesel?

Anybody who has ever had to change the oil and air/fuel/oil filters on a diesel vs. a gas engine will know this.

But you said "routine" because gas engines have considerably more maintenance needs than do diesels . . but not the oil changes and filter changes. The point IS NOT about routine maintenance . . the point is about all maintenance . . and gas engines have far greater maintenance costs and frequency than do diesels.

Not really. Routine oil and filter changes are similar in frequency with small filter-equipped gasoline vs. small diesel engines at about every 100-200 hours. Automotive diesels and gasoline engines have similar service intervals. The difference is that the diesels' filters are more expensive and they require much more oil than a gasoline engine.

I think what you are talking about is time until you need a rebuild, which is going to be longer for diesels. But that is a very, very long time (essentially "forever") on a small engine that gets only a hundred hours or so a year worth of use. Again, this is grossly different from an engine in a team-operated semi that may put on 100 hours in a week.

Well rhe Ram you are refering to is the "eco diesel" typically using the 8 speed transmission. It gets an epa rating of 29 and a real world 31 while the hemi engine with passive drop offs gets 23 under perfect conditions.

So fuel costs are greatly different. Even more importantly . . you seemed to have forgotten to mention the "eco diesel" is a new product model while the hemi with 8 fpeed has been out since 2013 and then with av6 speed since 2012 and av5 speed since 2010 0r 2009. Of corse the brand new model undersells the hemi.

The 3.5 L V6 EcoBoost was a brand-new engine for Ford in 2011 and had similar discussions over maintenance and cost concerns and a promise of improved fuel mileage. The EcoBoost was sold in about half of all F-150s that year, which was a far higher percentage than the percentage of Ram 1500s with the VM Motori diesel. Just because an engine is new and more expensive doesn't mean it can't sell well. The issue is that the VM Motori engine in the Ram's only selling point is fuel economy. It is not too tough to estimate how long you will have to have the vehicle based on your average mileage and the differences in fuel economy and fuel prices to determine when you will break even on paying back the higher initial cost and ongoing costs of the diesel engine. For many people, it will be longer than they anticipate owning the vehicle and thus the engine with slightly higher fuel economy actually ends up costing them more over their lifetime with the engine.

 

[mo1]

Maintenance costs? Yea, I get that comment a lot with my car. Factory oil change interval for that is 10K miles on the oil. Do you do that in your gasser? And before the gubment changed the API spec to CJ4, it was REAL easy to use oil analysis to do extended intervals safely to 20K miles.

... and I don't have to buy any spark plugs (or plug wires etc.)

The service interval on my gasoline-powered pickup engine is also approximately 10,000 miles. The engine has an oil life meter and it will allow for up to 10,000 miles between changes. The interval ends up being either one year or 10,000 miles, whichever comes first, so in practice it's 10,000 miles. Newer gasoline engines are coil on plug and don't have spark plug wires. Spark plugs also get changed only every 100,000-150,000 miles and cost less than a hundred bucks for a set of good ones for a V8 engine.

 

[hutchman]

Anybody who has ever had to change the oil and air/fuel/oil filters on a diesel vs. a gas engine will know this.

Yes, I agree with you ... and I do know. I have 4 diesels with almost a million miles combined and we'll over 4,000 hours on one unit. And since I do all the engine work on said engines I do know their maintenance cost and it is not more than had all the above been gas engines.

 

[hutchman]

Oh, and my 2 VW TDI's only use 4.5 quarts with oil/filter change ... same as about all the other 4 cylinder gas engines on the planet. And my oil filter costs about $6 because it is a paper cartridge ... not a spin on with a lot of metal etc.

 

[hutchman]

The service interval on my gasoline-powered pickup engine is also approximately 10,000 miles. The engine has an oil life meter and it will allow for up to 10,000 miles between changes.

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying I don't know or have heard of anyone doing 10K OCI's with a gas anything. I don't know or have heard of any shops that advocate such a thing either. Maybe with some special Uber oil from Amsoil but not stuff mere mortals buy at walmart.

 

[aczlan]

I'm not saying I don't believe you. I'm saying I don't know or have heard of anyone doing 10K OCI's with a gas anything. I don't know or have heard of any shops that advocate such a thing either. Maybe with some special Uber oil from Amsoil but not stuff mere mortals buy at walmart.

Mobile 1 is sold at Walmart and they claim 15k mile OCI:

Mobil 1 Extended Performance is an advanced full synthetic motor oil that keeps your engine running like new and provides protection for up to 15,000 miles between oil changes – guaranteed.

I have been doing 10k mile OCIs on my '97 Volvo V90 for the last few years with no ill effects, I just change the oil in Nov when I install my snowtires.

Aaron Z