CK35 HST shattered piston at 400 hours

[Coyote machine]

Oversizing one cylinder was common on the old Jeep 4 cylinder engines. Eric is correct about the vibration issue at those rpm's, but at 2500 I'm guessing it wouldn't be a factor. Monday morning quarterbacking here, but that cylinder looks rebuildable.

One thing I noticed from the pictures is it looked like the crank journals got hot. Looking at the discoloration next to the rod caps. Or could this be from a heat treat process?

You seem like a very decent guy, Chris! I hope this story has a happy ending for you!

I somehow missed this post, but it brings up a question I too had about what looked like blue burned/hot spots I saw when I went to look at the last set of pics. I wasn't sure if what I thought I saw was heat damage or just the pics and possible distortion in the pics. When I looked closely, I noticed it appeared to be evident in more than one crank journal.
If this is ancillary damage due to the piston failure, it could indicate rod bearing damage from particles that found their way into the journals/rod bearings, and possibly even into the main bearings. This could have led to the bluish burned coloration evident in the pics.
This is another reason, early on, I suggested taking whatever was left of crankcase oil and sending it out for analysis. This might have led to further evidence of unseen, or unable to be seen damage, that would remain hidden from the naked eye, but not from a spectrophoto analysis of the engine oil metals present at time of engine failure.

 

[Fawken]

I see the discoloration on the crankshaft next to a main bearing (Rear?). It looks to me that two of the pictures are of the same cylinder with the camera angled differently. In any case the discoloration is definitely related to heat- however I see no discoloration whatsoever on the associated bearing cap which, being comprised of less mass, should show signs of heat if friction in the bearing were the source.

 

[CenTex Chris]

This is another reason, early on, I suggested taking whatever was left of crankcase oil and sending it out for analysis. This might have led to further evidence of unseen, or unable to be seen damage, that would remain hidden from the naked eye, but not from a spectrophoto analysis of the engine oil metals present at time of engine failure.

The original oil that was in the crankcase at the time of piston failure is in fact back in the engine now. The mechanic who did the discovery put everything back together "as it was" for me including the original crankcase oil. With the exception of the piston skirt shards and other debris, of course. That which was large enough to get picked out.

Can't help but wonder if any aluminum particulate matter in that oil found its way to the top of the engine and did any further damage there during the few minutes we had it started and running to get it back on the trailer.

I myself wouldn't know how or where to send an oil sample for analysis, but if Kioti wants to do that then they certainly have that option.

 

[CenTex Chris]

It looks to me that two of the pictures are of the same cylinder with the camera angled differently.

Yes, that's true... sorry about that.

 

[Fawken]

Yes, that's true... sorry about that.

Hey no prob, Chris. The biggest thing EVERYONE here should have learned from this post (including myself) is that we all have cameras in our pockets now. And you did an excellent job of getting invaluable, on the spot, documentation of this disaster- which could happen to anyone. You seem to be one cool headed customer indeed.

 

[aczlan]

The original oil that was in the crankcase at the time of piston failure is in fact back in the engine now. The mechanic who did the discovery put everything back together "as it was" for me including the original crankcase oil. With the exception of the piston skirt shards and other debris, of course. That which was large enough to get picked out.
Can't help but wonder if any aluminum particulate matter in that oil found its way to the top of the engine and did any further damage there during the few minutes we had it started and running to get it back on the trailer.
I myself wouldn't know how or where to send an oil sample for analysis, but if Kioti wants to do that then they certainly have that option.

Blackstone labs will test a sample for $25: Blackstone Labs
Here are their instructions:

Run the engine before you take the sample to get the oil at operating temperature (driving about 20 minutes should do it). Getting the oil up to operating temperature should help cook out any normal moisture or fuel build-up.
If you're taking your sample while changing the oil, let some oil drain before you fill up the bottle. Try not to get either the first or the last oil out of the pan.
If you can't access the pan and need to use a pump, thread the tube down the dipstick and pump a sample up into the sampling bottle.
We need 3 oz to complete all our tests. But even if you only have 1 oz, we can still do at least two, if not three, of our tests. If you have questions about whether we'll be able to work with your sample, call us.
Complete the oil sample information slip.
For the Unit Number field, please identify what you'd like to call this engine (e.g., Truck 1, Old Blue, 91 Jimmy).
For the Make-Up Oil field, please put the number of quarts added between oil changes.
Do you want a TBN? This is a test used to measure the amount of active additive left in the oil. It may be useful if you are interested in extending your oil usage. The test costs an extra $10.
Wrap the gray material around the oil sample and put both in the plastic bag. Roll together the sample, information slip, and a check or credit card number. Put it all in the black mailer tube and send it to us.

In your case, I would skip warming up the engine...

Aaron Z

 

[deezler]

The original oil that was in the crankcase at the time of piston failure is in fact back in the engine now. The mechanic who did the discovery put everything back together "as it was" for me including the original crankcase oil. With the exception of the piston skirt shards and other debris, of course. That which was large enough to get picked out.

Can't help but wonder if any aluminum particulate matter in that oil found its way to the top of the engine and did any further damage there during the few minutes we had it started and running to get it back on the trailer.

I myself wouldn't know how or where to send an oil sample for analysis, but if Kioti wants to do that then they certainly have that option.

Well, that sucks. Oil in the pan gets screened and filtered before it flows through the rest of the engine. But it sounds like your mechanics simply poured the contaminated oil back into the top of the engine? Did he filter it at all? oof. Listen to Coyote_machine..... don't run it any more!

In any case, I still am optimistic that you'll be in good shape for a simple rebuild here. Replacing the liner/piston/pin/rod in one cylinder only may be a perfectly safe way to get the engine running again. BUT! You really need to remove the other two piston/pin/rod assemblies and inspect the following at a minimum:
- Other pistons for any cracks or excessive wear. Use dye-penetrant and UV light inspection on the pistons.
- The condition of the liners (bore surfaces) in the other cylinders
- The crankshaft rod journals for possible wear from debris. You can always replace the rod bearings but if the crank is all scratched up..... you might be screwed.
- Also check the cylinder head while it's off. Especially in your damaged cylinder, debris could have gotten up atop the piston and into the valves/seats.
- While the engine is apart, clean everything out real good. Wash and flush that contaminated oil out of there.

And probably more that I am forgetting before I get some coffee into my brain this morning. Keep the faith, though! Engines are serviceable for a reason.

 

[Fawken]

Well, that sucks. Oil in the pan gets screened and filtered before it flows through the rest of the engine. But it sounds like your mechanics simply poured the contaminated oil back into the top of the engine? Did he filter it at all? oof. Listen to Coyote_machine..... don't run it any more!

In any case, I still am optimistic that you'll be in good shape for a simple rebuild here. Replacing the liner/piston/pin/rod in one cylinder only may be a perfectly safe way to get the engine running again. BUT! You really need to remove the other two piston/pin/rod assemblies and inspect the following at a minimum:
- Other pistons for any cracks or excessive wear. Use dye-penetrant and UV light inspection on the pistons.
- The condition of the liners (bore surfaces) in the other cylinders
- The crankshaft rod journals for possible wear from debris. You can always replace the rod bearings but if the crank is all scratched up..... you might be screwed.
- Also check the cylinder head while it's off. Especially in your damaged cylinder, debris could have gotten up atop the piston and into the valves/seats.
- While the engine is apart, clean everything out real good. Wash and flush that contaminated oil out of there.

And probably more that I am forgetting before I get some coffee into my brain this morning. Keep the faith, though! Engines are serviceable for a reason.

I don't think he should and likely isn't considering doing anything at all with THIS engine. Either Kioti replaces it with a new one or other remedies will be invoked. The pictures prove that a hidden defect existed during the warranty period. Due to the nature of the defect neither the servicing dealer or the consumer could have discovered it during routine maintenance. If you patch it up and sell it with known issues and do not disclose that to the buyer you can be held responsible even though it is a "used" machine. (See Texas Lemon Law revisions to include used vehicles) The only way to avoid this liability is the tractor must be advertised and sold "as is-where is." So what would be the point of spending thousands of dollars on a machine that will be going for "salvage price" regardless?

 

[Coyote machine]

The original oil that was in the crankcase at the time of piston failure is in fact back in the engine now. The mechanic who did the discovery put everything back together "as it was" for me including the original crankcase oil. With the exception of the piston skirt shards and other debris, of course. That which was large enough to get picked out.

Can't help but wonder if any aluminum particulate matter in that oil found its way to the top of the engine and did any further damage there during the few minutes we had it started and running to get it back on the trailer.

I myself wouldn't know how or where to send an oil sample for analysis, but if Kioti wants to do that then they certainly have that option.

The few minutes it took to get it on the trailer are probably not nearly as significant as the time your neighbor was driving it around after it had self destructed and the piston pieces were flying around getting hammered by the rest of the engine.
Either way, drain that oil out and send it for analysis. It will be money well spent, and will bolster your case for more than a piston replacement repair. Let Kioti know you're doing it so they can factor in the outcome in their decisions.

 

[deezler]

I don't think he should and likely isn't considering doing anything at all with THIS engine. Either Kioti replaces it with a new one or other remedies will be invoked. The pictures prove that a hidden defect existed during the warranty period. Due to the nature of the defect neither the servicing dealer or the consumer could have discovered it during routine maintenance. If you patch it up and sell it with known issues and do not disclose that to the buyer you can be held responsible even though it is a "used" machine. (See Texas Lemon Law revisions to include used vehicles) The only way to avoid this liability is the tractor must be advertised and sold "as is-where is." So what would be the point of spending thousands of dollars on a machine that will be going for "salvage price" regardless?

Why not keep the tractor and get great use out of it for 2000 more hours?

Sure, a new engine would be swell, but it's a bit presumptuous to believe that Kioti will jump right and in and provide one. They may not agree that any failure occurred before the warranty was up.