Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[buickanddeere]

Well Mo1, it took long enough . . but you're finally posting factually . . . Because there is no comparable and as a result the gad engine concept in a scut or cut is only conceptual - - - not factual or with a predictable outcome.

I'd be curious what a comparable gas engine would cost compared to a diesel FOR TRACTOR PURPOSES. The fact you're describing a 35 hp gas to compare to my Iseki would imply a fairly expensive gas engine to start with.

I'd also percieve that keeping a 35 hp gas engine cool would require considerably more effort and cost than a 25 hp diesel. And engine materials and alloys in a gas vs. Diesel would also be quite varied.

I liken gas vs. Diesel in a potential tractor to the difference between a halfback and a fullback in football . . One built for speed (gas and halfback) and one built for sheer power and pounding (fullback and diesel).

Now there are hybrids in running backs (our Eddie Lacy is fast and a bigger pounder). I would think gas adapts better for atv and utv much better than diesel.

But the ultimate variable is that no major manufacturer uses gas in their tractors even though all the besy tractor engines are made in japan or korea. And those same countries also make the best gas engines imo. If a comparable gas engine were likely . . . It would have to be for cost savings and profit making . . Yet yanmar, iseki and kubota do not produce one. And Kawasaki, Shimotsu, yamaha, honda, et all don't have a gas product in a scut or cut tractor.

It's because those manufactures sell to a world wide market where most places diesel costs less per gallon. Do you think they will try to sell a diesel to such countries. Many of which also have lax diesel emissions specs so delete the Tier IV emissions equipment.
Now move over to the much different North American market. The customer is brain washed that diesel is "best" with old data from the 1930's to the 1980's. Diesel is also sold for "status". Look who has their chest puffed out driving a new diesel pickup off the lot. The North American customer will pay for the greater $$$ diesel and diesel emissions equipment. All of which the manufacture makes a larger profit on than a plain DI gasser. Soooooooooooooo what do you think CUT manufactures are going to design and sell?

 

[buickanddeere]

I just replaced my 22HP John Deere rider 48" deck with a Kubota G2120 54" deck. I was a little concerned dropping power and adding the hydraulics (power steering) but the result in heavy grass is completing our 4 acre lawn in 1/3 the time plus doing a much better job. The Diesel, although lower power, will pull right through the tough spots where the gas engine just died. Back to sump ke physics, Diesel cycle vs Otto cycle. I list many of our tractors but don't list the gasolines - we have 4 Farmall A's, 2 M's and a Super C sitting around that get a little use running grain augers and the like. Our first diesel, a Case 400 Super Diesel in 1956, shut the door on ever having a gas tractor except for odd little things.

So tell us please what year did all this take place. Now tell us what year is it now? Why are so many of you stuck so far in the past?

 

[buickanddeere]

Again, this is apples-to-oranges. Forklift engines run pretty much like car engines in that they're rarely at near maximum rated power for extended periods of time. They spend most of their life idling, or at low power settings, not droning away at full throttle for thousands of hours.

You still can't seem to accept the idea that a LP or DI gas engine can be superior to diesel in any application. It's not 1972, it's 2015.

 

[buickanddeere]

Forklifts don't do much "hard" work. They just go back and forth, more than half the time with no load, and they use a hydraulic pump to lift. They do run a very long time, but again, not much load on them.

As I've mentioned many times, my late 70s IH2500b was a 50PTO HP gas engined tractor loader. It was also HST. Full cab, loaded tires, etc... about 8000#. It was also available with a diesel engine. Here's the specs for both engines below. As you can see, the diesel is larger and it has a more HP. Really, if you build a large displacement gas engine designed to do the work intended, you'd have to build a larger diesel engine to do the same work. It will cost a lot more, too. However, the diesel will be able to hold in the the torque curve longer, last a lot longer and use considerably less fuel. In and HST application like mine, it was recommended to run the thing at PTO rpms constantly. The diesel was much more fuel efficient and from talking to the guys at the industrial repair place I used a few times, the diesel was allegedly going twice as many hours as the gas before rebuilds under normal use. This was a late 70's design.

With that said, I had no issues with power and the gas engine. In a modern HST CUT or SCUT designed for mostly non-earth engaging tasks ( dirt plowing fields and pulling stumps), I'd have no issues with a gas engine. Its just turning a pump. You have to wonder why they stopped putting gas engines in them, then. It's probably because the diesel works better, lasts longer, is easier to work on at the shop, less parts to stock, and the manufacturer can charge more and make more profit.

Engine Detail:
International Harvester D-239
diesel
4-cylinder
liquid-cooled
239 ci [3.9 L]
Power: 67 hp [50.0 kW] (gear)
80 hp [59.7 kW] (hydro)
Compression: 16:1
Rated RPM: 2200 (gear)
2400 (hydro)
Oil capacity: 10 qts [9.5 L]
Coolant capacity: 14 qts [13.2 L]

Engine Detail:
International Harvester C-200
gasoline
4-cylinder
liquid-cooled
200 ci [3.3 L]
Power: 66 hp [49.2 kW] (gear)
74 hp [55.2 kW] (hydro)
Compression: 7.3:1
Rated RPM: 2200 (gear)
2400 (hydro)
Oil capacity: 7 qts [6.6 L]
Coolant capacity: 12 qts [11.4 L]

Note you said late 70's. Lets recall a low compression gas with a carb and points ignition. Lets think 2015 with a high compression DI gas vs a Tier Iv diesel. With diesel costs more per gallon than gasoline. Why can't some people flip the pages ahead on the calendar 40 years ?

 

[aczlan]

Again, this is apples-to-oranges. Forklift engines run pretty much like car engines in that they're rarely at near maximum rated power for extended periods of time. They spend most of their life idling, or at low power settings, not droning away at full throttle for thousands of hours.

Depends on the forklift and the driver...
We have several at work that are used for dumping fruit into a bulk truck, they are setup with a forward bin dumper (like this one: https://www.cascorp.com/americas/en/forwardbindumper ).
When the guys run that, its running wide open to lift 1500-2000# up to the top of the trailer and dump the bins, then it idles while it comes down, then they floor it to drive over to the row of empty bins, drop the two empties, back off the throttle to change directions, then grab another two full bins and push the pedal to the floor to begin again.
Is it at 100% load all the time? No, but it probably averages a 60-70% load on the engine for 1-5 hours at a stretch.
Its a lot more load than our BX2660 gets when mowing (because it cant move fast enough to load the engine down in grass that is less than 6" tall) or plowing snow.

Aaron Z

 

[GManBart]

but if the engine was built for the use it would not blow nor overheat.

This is the key factor. Nobody makes a gasoline engine "for the use" we're talking about. That's what I'm saying over and over.

Now for the blowing up due to over revving for a long period of time what would happen if we set up a diesel to be able to attain the same rpm that the gas engine in your friends car can and did the same thing even with it being built to make max power well below max RPM? Ever see what happens when a diesel has pump failure and keeps on going up in RMP till it blows?

The engine in question was operated within it's normal RPM range. It wasn't revved over the limit, and there was no parts failure to allow it to go beyond redline. It was simply worked near it's maximum capability for an extended period of time. That's the exact difference I'm talking about. A light-duty cycle engine, like what gets put in cars is capable of being worked hard enough to cause major damage without exceeding it's normal limits. A heavy-duty cycle engine won't hurt itself without something unusual happening.

 

[Loadstar]

Fork trucks should be the testing grounds for torturing engines. Load up, pedal to the floor, let off pedal, unload repeat about 150 times a day. Average industrial forktruck is tortured far more than cars trucks and most small tractors.

 

[Loadstar]

This is the key factor. Nobody makes a gasoline engine "for the use" we're talking about. That's what I'm saying over and over.

The engine in question was operated within it's normal RPM range. It wasn't revved over the limit, and there was no parts failure to allow it to go beyond redline. It was simply worked near it's maximum capability for an extended period of time. That's the exact difference I'm talking about. A light-duty cycle engine, like what gets put in cars is capable of being worked hard enough to cause major damage without exceeding it's normal limits. A heavy-duty cycle engine won't hurt itself without something unusual happening.

Do you work in industry? There are industrial gas engines all over the place. You can't compare a vette engine to an industrial gas engine. Car engines are light duty.

 

[aczlan]

Fork trucks should be the testing grounds for torturing engines. Load up, pedal to the floor, let off pedal, unload repeat about 150 times a day. Average industrial forktruck is tortured far more than cars trucks and most small tractors.

150 times a day? Our guys do it 150 times an hour when we are busy, especially when they are stacking bins in the rooms and they are lifting 3000-4000# of fruit 20+ feet in the air...

Aaron Z

 

[GManBart]

You still can't seem to accept the idea that a LP or DI gas engine can be superior to diesel in any application. It's not 1972, it's 2015.

I never said that can't be better in some applications. I just said that a gas engine, of any kind, is inferior in a tractor...which is the topic, BTW.