Any news on gas engine CUTS?

[AxleHub]

Again a "tractor" is too broad a brush. Somebody out ploughing 1000acres fulling an average of 180HP from 200HP engine from sunrise to sun set daily. That is a HD service diesel application .
Mr Retired out on his rural estate putting around on his CUT or SCUT "tractor "is not operating at full rated rpms from sunrise to sun set at full power for 1000hrs per season.
Mr Retired light and medium duty service is hauling a bucket of dirt to a flower bed, pulling a lawn sprayer , lawn roller , going to get the mail, carrying a bail of hay to the horse, cleaning stables . Cold starts to move snow is better with a spark ignition too.
Mr Retired will be hard pressed to put 100hrs a year on the CUT or SCUT . How much fuel savings is there going to be ? Zero.

Buickanddeere,

Have you really such a low level of common sense? There are large quantities of people investing in scuts and cuts to do real work. Your description is demeaning and inaccurate as well. 20 and 25 hp scuts mowing deep grass is not light load activity. Who invests in a fel to move a single bucket of dirt occasionally ?

And in your other post you seem oblivious that if we are using the newer shale oil more instead of Saudi oil . . the particulate levels should further decline from present.

On the other hand gasoline requirements are going to face greater epa challenges as new shale oil reduces its issues for diesel but makes no difference for gasoline. And oil prices will have a bracket of 40 to 70 per barrel while the old bracket was 60 to 115 per barrel. And China is no longer the great diesel importer it was with the "stimulation" efforts of a dozen years by China's gov't now ended.

The thread is on cuts and scuts and today more than ever these products are in greater and greater demand for use as working tractors.

 

[DavesTractor]

Interesting thread, except for all the emotional back and forth stuff.

Just a comment on forklifts, they stop and change directions constantly. They are very heavy, a typical 6000 lb capacity lift might weight 11,000 lbs and often the operator will go to full throttle after he drops a pallet and is heading to the next one. This is a load. Going full throttle again to lift the load fast probably does not require all that much HP. I do realize that this is not the same as a tractor with a tiller sunk deep in the ground working acre after acre, but I do not think a forklift is a gentle duty cycle. The modern gas/LP engines in forklifts last a long time if cared for. I still prefer the diesel lifts, but I am impressed with the modern gas engines.

Many CUTS are used in light duty applications. Cleaning horse stalls, mowing sparse grass, grading a driveway. I prefer the diesel, but a gas tractor would work fine in many applications. It must not make sense from a marketing or cost perspective.

I'd like to see a little electric tractor for the guy with one acre that uses his tractor just to tinker.

 

[aczlan]

I hate to bring up auto comparisons again but I can't let a comment like that stand ... there is NO straight gasser (and I'm even including those stupid little SMART cars) that can best the highway MPG of my 2002 VW Jetta TDI. Heck, I don't think there is one that can beat my 2006 TDI either so I'm tired of you spouting off how much more efficient the gasser is when it simply isn't so. If there was something out there (that wasn't as big as a pregnant roller skate) in a gasoline engine that efficient as you say I'd be driving it.

More efficient in what way? The only thing that really matters to me is the cost per mile driven.
Going to cars that meet today's emissions regs, (numbers from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2015_Volkswagen_Jetta.shtml):
The 2015 Jetta TDI (4 cyl, 2.0 L Diesel, Auto(AM-S6)) is rated at 31 City, 36 Combined and 45 Highway.
The 1.8L gas version (4 cyl, 1.8 L Regular Gasoline, Automatic (S6) is rated at 25 City, 30 Combined and 37 Highway.
The 2.0L gas version (4 cyl, 2.0 L Regular Gasoline, Automatic (S6) is rated at 23 City, 26 Combined and 34 Highway.
The hybrid version (4 cyl, 1.4 L Premium Gasoline Hybrid, Auto(AM-S7)) is rated at 42 City, 45 Combined and 48 Highway.
Near me, Regular is $2.71, Premium is $3.01 and Diesel is $3.07.
So, fuel costs for running down the highway (excluding any and all maintenance, note that the Hybrid will need brakes much less often) would be as follows:
1.8L Gas - $0.0602/mile
2.0L Gas - $0.0797/mile
Hybrid - $0.0627/mile
TDI - $0.0682/mile
If the TDI got up to 50MPG (of if you are running your 2002), it would still cost $0.0614/mile for fuel.
If the Hybrid got 46MPG on the highway running regular gasoline, it would cost $0.0589/mile for fuel.
So, the 1.8L gas Jetta will beat a TDI in $/mile around here and the hybrid version blows it out of the water.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Getting back to tractors, Kubota has industrial gas and diesel engines listed:
Diesel: http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/Brochures-Engines Tier 4/SM-D902_E4B.pdf
Gas: http://www.kubotaengine.com/assets/documents/wg752_g_e3_ol.pdf
Unfortunately, one has the HP/Torgue chart is listed with Net HP while the other is Gross HP.
HP wise, the gas one is listed at 24.5 Gross Intermittent HP (from a 0.74L 3cyl NA engine) vs 24.8 Gross Intermittent HP (from a 0.898L 3 cyl NA Diesel engine).
Weight wise, the gas version is 136# and the diesel one is ~157#

Aaron Z

 

[hutchman]

Interesting thread, except for all the emotional back and forth stuff.

Just a comment on forklifts, they stop and change directions constantly. They are very heavy, a typical 6000 lb capacity lift might weight 11,000 lbs and often the operator will go to full throttle after he drops a pallet and is heading to the next one. This is a load. Going full throttle again to lift the load fast probably does not require all that much HP. I do realize that this is not the same as a tractor with a tiller sunk deep in the ground working acre after acre, but I do not think a forklift is a gentle duty cycle. The modern gas/LP engines in forklifts last a long time if cared for. I still prefer the diesel lifts, but I am impressed with the modern gas engines.

Many CUTS are used in light duty applications. Cleaning horse stalls, mowing sparse grass, grading a driveway. I prefer the diesel, but a gas tractor would work fine in many applications. It must not make sense from a marketing or cost perspective.

I'd like to see a little electric tractor for the guy with one acre that uses his tractor just to tinker.

Raven Hybrid Lawn Mower (mower, generator & mpv) | DR Power Equipment

 

[hutchman]

More efficient in what way? The only thing that really matters to me is the cost per mile driven.
Going to cars that meet today's emissions regs, (numbers from https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2015_Volkswagen_Jetta.shtml):
The 2015 Jetta TDI (4 cyl, 2.0 L Diesel, Auto(AM-S6)) is rated at 31 City, 36 Combined and 45 Highway.
The 1.8L gas version (4 cyl, 1.8 L Regular Gasoline, Automatic (S6) is rated at 25 City, 30 Combined and 37 Highway.
The 2.0L gas version (4 cyl, 2.0 L Regular Gasoline, Automatic (S6) is rated at 23 City, 26 Combined and 34 Highway.
The hybrid version (4 cyl, 1.4 L Premium Gasoline Hybrid, Auto(AM-S7)) is rated at 42 City, 45 Combined and 48 Highway.
Near me, Regular is $2.71, Premium is $3.01 and Diesel is $3.07.
So, fuel costs for running down the highway (excluding any and all maintenance, note that the Hybrid will need brakes much less often) would be as follows:
1.8L Gas - $0.0602/mile
2.0L Gas - $0.0797/mile
Hybrid - $0.0627/mile
TDI - $0.0682/mile
If the TDI got up to 50MPG (of if you are running your 2002), it would still cost $0.0614/mile for fuel.
If the Hybrid got 46MPG on the highway running regular gasoline, it would cost $0.0589/mile for fuel.
So, the 1.8L gas Jetta will beat a TDI in $/mile around here and the hybrid version blows it out of the water.

Aaron Z

What is not shown here is it's been proven the Diesel estimates are on the conservative side while the gas estimates are on the overly optimistic side ... which is why there are more than one Mfr. getting sued over it now. If you spend time in that link I posted you will find 50MPG is what the loosers get ... I know some guys that get 60+.

And what B&D will not acknowledge is 2017 specs are coming and gas is in the crosshairs this time. So gas engines will be MORE expensive and the gap between gas & diesel engine cost will narrow, not grow.

And you do not calculate I've been getting that kind of MPG for the LAST 13 YEARS .. while no gasser up until recently even came close to that. And I mentioned "straight gas" so I was excluding the hybird as that is cheating.

Bottom line ... I'm talking real world numbers ... not fiction. If you want to believe something on a .gov site I have a bridge for sale

 

[aczlan]

20 and 25 hp scuts mowing deep grass is not light load activity. Who invests in a fel to move a single bucket of dirt occasionally ?

Do you call commercial zero turns mowing just as much grass, but at twice the ground speed a light load activity? Most of them put as many hours on a machine in a month as most SCUTS see in a year and they run them to 1500-2000 hours without major incidents.

What is not shown here is it's been proven the Diesel estimates are on the conservative side while the gas estimates are on the overly optimistic side ... which is why there are more than one Mfr. getting sued over it now. If you spend time in that link I posted you will find 50MPG is what the loosers get ... I know some guys that get 60+.

It depends on how you drive. I used the .gov numbers because its a good baseline. From what the 60MPG guys posted over there, they are mostly older (A4 and a few A5) VWs (going 57-58MPH on the interstate), I sure hope that is in the right lane because otherwise they are being a danger to others on the road.
Those who were posting in that thread had long term averages (from Fuelly) in the 40-48MPG range for A4/A5 vehicles.

Aaron Z

 

[hutchman]

Do you call commercial zero turns mowing just as much grass, but at twice the ground speed a light load activity? Most of them put as many hours on a machine in a month as most SCUTS see in a year and they run them to 1500-2000 hours without major incidents.


It depends on how you drive. I used the .gov numbers because its a good baseline. From what the 60MPG guys posted over there, they are mostly older (A4 and a few A5) VWs (going 57-58MPH on the interstate), I sure hope that is in the right lane because otherwise they are being a danger to others on the road.
Those who were posting in that thread had long term averages (from Fuelly) in the 40-48MPG range for A4/A5 vehicles.

Aaron Z

I've heard of some guys that "drive for mileage" and get tickets for it but the guy I'm thinking about drove big miles like I used to and did the 6spd tranny swap ... and does NOT drive slow. I don't baby mine either and the $$$ spent on tires (torque is hard on them ) reflects that!

I guess I lied before ... I care about more than just cost per mile ... I also care about safety (usually related to vehicle weight) and performance ... the first two things a gasser usually has to give up to maximize MPG. And the ability to keep them going myself and away from shops.

Yes, my 2002 is A4 (MK-IV) and my 2006 is A5 (Mk-V). The previous version to my 2002 got even better mileage (the A3 / Mk- III). Every model after the A3 went down in MPG (due to more emissions stuff & weight) until they started putting 6 speed manuals standard (7 speed auto's) to claw back some of the MPG lost to regulations. The A4 is a pretty simple engine (not as heavy duty as a Mercedes OM617 but it spanks it MPG wise) and I plan on keeping it going as long as I can. Same with the A5 (over 214,000 miles but it has required more love so far).

 

[DarkBlack]

You're making my point. The engine in a fork truck is lighter, and cheaper because it can be lighter and cheaper and still not fail. That wouldn't be the case if you put that engine in a tractor. It would have to be heavier, and more expensive to survive. I was pointing out that a modern tractor engine of the same horsepower is (in this case) 50% bigger...there's a reason for that. The manufacturers aren't arbitrarily making the engine any larger or more expensive than necessary.

Short version....tractor duty cycles are harder than fork truck duty cycles and that changes engine requirements. For whatever reason, folks are trying to use fork truck engines as some sort of comparison they think is valid, but it's clearly apples-to-oranges.

No, I made my point, but you missed it. Back to the OP's original post questioning a gasser in a tractor vs a diesel, for the same price a company could sell you a tractor with a much larger CC gas engine, that would make the same power at a low RPM as the smaller diesel. They don't do it because the gasser uses more fuel, the gas is more unstable and flammable. It's not because it can't survive. It could if it were also governed to 3k rpm's.

 

[DarkBlack]

Lots of good thinking if you only can get past the sloppy comparisons so you can make sense of it. ... A revved engine is only at full throttle if it is carrying a full rated load. A non loaded engine running at it rated rpm is in a High Idle mode, putting out only enuf power to spin. The Corvette blew up at very low load - similar to hi idle. Something was wrong with it.

Forklifts never go for extended periods under hi load condition.

engine RPM stress is totally different than crankshaft load. You need to account for the difference.