O my, I am comfused

[TomSeller]

Their are a couple of golf coarses in my area i went and asked the grounds people what machines they use and how they work cutting the lamd theynhabe.

Any serious golf course is going to have dedicated, often sole purpose, machines. They need to cut grass well and do it fast with little to no ground or turf impact. Different machines for the different areas of course.

 

[AxleHub]

If seel all your points but i can argue with them.

I also think the gc1710 is just right, but alot of momey for such a small machine. I Feel like i am getting a better deal with the 1734e. I Usually go a step bigger when it comes to buying stuff, but this purchase is very confusing for me. I guess maybe the gc MF with the mmm would be better for my property.

Maybe a MF gc1720, i assume then after all the reading a backho would uproot small trees and bushes alot better then using the loader on the bigger machine. I can always get the single grapple like axle is staing the move smaller logs around.

Nikko,

Take a deep breath and remember you don't have to decide today on anything

You've got lots of posters presenting the ideas of "bigger tractor" or "used bigger tractor" and "additional lawn mower".

Meanwhile throughout this thread I've always suggested you consoder a good quality new scut instead of a cut. In addition I mentioned 3 specific brands because of their decades long history of building not only engines but entire design and build of tractors. One of those brands and scut series is what I own the GC1715 by massey.

While others use the term "do everything machine" as a not accurate potential . . I've always focused on the idea of a "do most things well" approach.

To keep this post short . . I'll followup in a couple of later posts summarizing the strengths and weaknesses of the gc1705 and gc1715 (the gc1710 and gc1720 are the same but with backhoe).

 

[AxleHub]

Nikko,

Obviously many are telling you to get a lawn mower. If you have slopes and considetable inclines ir sidehills . . you'd want something other than a zero turn rider because they are not the safe choice for a young father and husband in my opinion. You'd either want an expensive dixie chopper type zero turn tractor or someother form of zero turn tractor (not rider). Or a nice quality traditional lawn tractor with 4wd or at least dual differentials.

But others claim its easier on the lawn than a scut. Well my 1.2 acres of manicured lawn are very nice using my gc1715. I have no more compaction or grass roughing than I do with my zero turn tractor . . Becausebthe weight per inch of tire contact is the same (gc1715 tires are considerably wider than mower tires). AND 4wd assures less or no slipping which creates tearing of sod besides on hills and slopes.

How about manuevering. Well I researched long to find a specific mmm deck massey makes. Its 54 inches and a dedicated mulching unit . . NO exhaust chute. So my mower deck is 16+ inches narrower (not an error . . Sixteen inches) than the standard 60 inch deck and I can cut in either direction without blowing grass.

Also . . the gc1715 handles my steep sidehills very well with a low center of gravity plus for less than $200 I can add spacers to both rears to increase stability even better than I have now.

Lastly . . because of the deck and tight cornering on the GC products . . I can cut as close with my tractor as I can with a normal lawn mower.

So with loaded tires, the addition of inexpensive spacers and a deck that has 6 blades (yes - six) . . I get a great lawn cutting machine that is heavy grade quality compared to lawn mowers and runs on far less fuel. AND the seat on the GC1715 is dual coil spring dupported AND an additional suspension spring enabled giving ride quality close to air suspension . . much more comfortable than lawn mowers.

 

[gladehound]

Maybe a MF gc1720, i assume then after all the reading a backho would uproot small trees and bushes alot better then using the loader on the bigger machine.

The backhoe on the MF GC1720 is rated at 2476 pounds of bucket digging force and this is focused over a narrow bucket. Bucket breakout on the loader for the 1734E is not listed. However breakout at the pin is listed at 1460 pounds (and breakout at the bucket is typically less). So for discussion, assume ~1000 pounds spread over a wide bucket. You can see from the numbers that the backhoe on the smaller tractor beats the loader hands down for ripping up stubborn roots.

You aren't likely to exceed the digging power of that small backhoe with a standard bucket until you get up to a large frame CUT, typically 40 - 60 hp and ~6 feet wide.

But there are lots of other options:

- a root grapple with a short bottom (shorter than the bucket to reduce distance to the pins). This might put the loader on the 1734E back in the game with less expense than a backhoe.
- a single shank root ripper on the 3 point which has ~2000 pounds of lift at the eyes on a 1734E combined with the pulling force of the tractor. - these are a few hundred.
- and my favorite... Forks can be used like a pry bar to stab into the ground under stubborn roots. Stab into ground just under roots and use the ground as the fulcrum. If you stab into the ground 1 foot with 3 foot forks, you get 3:1 leverage at the pins. lift the front of the tractor up putting about 1000 pounds on the pins. Now when you curl, you have 1000 x 3 or 3000 pounds from the weight of the tractor plus the curl force at 12 inches (whatever that is, not listed on your tractor). But it's probably ~2000 pounds at 12 inches. So you could get 5000 pounds of upward force on the roots this way.

Disclaimer - I wouldn't do this with light duty forks. But with a 4000 pound rated set I can't imagine that a 1734E could hurt them.

- you can also pry up with forks or a stump bucket and get crazy forces on the roots. I have not done this with forks because I'm afraid I'd break them but have done it with my stump bucked and can get 20,000+ pounds of force this way on my bigger tractor when getting it half way under the roots and more if it isn't as far past the root. You wouldn't get as much with the 1734E but you'd still get a lot. I'd guess in the 6000 - 8,000 pound range. Just make sure whatever you pry with is built for it.

Disclaimer - I've never tried this technique with a machine under 7,000 pounds and don't know if lighter machines would have the weight to push the forks / stump bucket under the root to start with (probably have better luck with forks). Many on TBN had expressed disappointment with stump buckets. I believe this is mostly due to not understanding the physics of leverage which can work for you or against you. It is also due to buying poorly designed "wedge" shaped stump buckets- avoid these as they are hard to push into the ground. Forks are probably the way to go on a smaller machine and have lots of other uses so you will wan them anyway.

The math for those who can't see how I got to 20,000+ pounds...

With a stump bucket that sticks out 40" past your loader pin, if you push it half way under a root and dump / lift and drive foreword at the same time using Kioti DS4510HS as example because I have all the specs.

~4000 lbs lift at pins x 2 (using bucket as pry bar with 2:1 advantage) = ~8000 pounds just from the lift cylinders
Now add in the dump function of the curl cylindars @ 20 inches = 8000 (lift cylinders) + 4500 (dump) = 12,500 pounds
Now add in the prying force from driving forward with the tractor, 3500 pounds push force (.5 coefficient of friction) x 2 (lever arm) and you get 12,500 + 6000 pounds = ~20,000 pounds of force on root (more if tip of bucket is less than 20" past the root center).

The stump bucket has teeth. The root either lifts up or slides down the teeth with tremendous pressure on it. I have ripped 10" live roots in half in one motion using this technique and I have never hit the relief valve doing this. The root rips, the ball pops up, or unfortunately sometimes the ground beneath the root gives way. The later only has happened when the bucket wasn't fully halfway under the root.

 

[gladehound]

Nikko,

Obviously many are telling you to get a lawn mower. If you have slopes and considetable inclines ir sidehills . . you'd want something other than a zero turn rider because they are not the safe choice for a young father and husband in my opinion. You'd either want an expensive dixie chopper type zero turn tractor or someother form of zero turn tractor (not rider). Or a nice quality traditional lawn tractor with 4wd or at least dual differentials.

But others claim its easier on the lawn than a scut. Well my 1.2 acres of manicured lawn are very nice using my gc1715. I have no more compaction or grass roughing than I do with my zero turn tractor . . Becausebthe weight per inch of tire contact is the same (gc1715 tires are considerably wider than mower tires). AND 4wd assures less or no slipping which creates tearing of sod besides on hills and slopes.
.

Good points. My zero turn probably weighs as much (1,100) as your SCUT without the loader and the tires look comparable. It's rated at 15 degrees. Handles 20 degrees easily but starts sliding somewhere in the mid 20 degree range (high 20's if dry, low 20's if wet).

If the hills are too steep for a commercial zero turn, a stand behind commercial unit can handle crazy steep hills and is safer if something goes wrong because you can step off the platform easily.

And I agree that a light SCUT with no attachments other than a MMM is fine for the lawn. However, without the backhoe, it's less than I would want for woods work. And for the cost of a unit with backhoe, I think there are better ways to spend the money. Just my opinion and hopefully the back and forth is educational for others.

Based on your assessment, a 10,000 pound tractor should be just as easy on the lawn as your SCUT if the tire are big enough. As I wrote before, many golf courses use utility tractors with the balloon style turf tires with pull behind mowers. The tractors are heavy, but the tires are very wide and very low pressure. But this approach only gets you so far. As you turn tighter, one side of a wide tire travels faster than the other even though both side have to rotate at the same speed and this causes scuffing on the grass. The wider the tire, the wider you have to turn.

 

[AxleHub]

Good points. My zero turn probably weights as much (1,100) as your SCUT without the loader and the tires look comparable. It's rated at 15 degrees. Handles 20 degrees easily but starts sliding somewhere in the mid 20 degree range (high 20's if dry, low 20's if wet).

As I wrote before, many gold courses use utility tractors with the balloon style turf tires with pull behind mowers. The tractors are heavy, but the tires are very wide and very low pressure. But this approach only gets you so far. As you turn tighter, one side of a wide tire travels faster than the other even though both side have to rotate as the same speed and this causes scuffing on the grass. The wider the tire, the wider you have to turn.

A gc1715 bare tractor including tires and wheels is 1419 lbs. Then you add in any loading of rears plus weight of a good quality mower deck (mine is 235 lbs a 60 inch is 275). So its 700 lbs different. But what about your front tires . . are they equal in size to a massey also?

You stated: " Based on your assessment, a 10,000 pound tractor should be just as easy on the lawn as your SCUT if the tire are big enough. "

That's your supposition glade . . And is exactly how septic system equipment works. Width spreads weight. Similarly wet ground ruts with smaller tires. But your logic fails in not fully including all conditions so you have an unbalanced situation. Going straight works but lawn cutting is about slopes and hills and circles. A turning radius is also required and 50 inch wide tires don't have it.

As for your zero turn . . does it have 4wd? Does it have front wheel steering and front loaded tires? Is it a front mount deck?
If not . . I would NEVER drive it on a 20 degree slope especially going up the hill or on even a 10 degree sidehill.

 

[AxleHub]

Nikko,

While others use the term "do everything machine" as a not accurate potential . . I've always focused on the idea of a "do most things well" approach.

Nikko,

I recently posted about the massey gc1715 as a lawn mowing machine. Now I'll talk about it as a tractor.

I have a long large concrete driveway with a considerable slope to it. I also have a front patio and rear patio of concrete and about 125 feet of 5 foot concrete sidewalk . . and we get wintet drifting too. So the GC will be using its bucket and/or bucket and snow edge often. And a lawn tractor will be equipped with a snowblower as well. My desire is to keep the fel on all winter . . so no $4500 snowblower for the gc1715. Too many snows will be bucket and snow edge. (Plow is too hard on concrete).

Then there is the brochure. Can you actually tell how much wdight the fel can lift? I can't. So on two different days I actually measured.

1st time I previously wrote about and it was 864 pounds of actual concrete I moved on pallet forked effort.

But I did it again yesterday in very controlled conditions.

Fel minus bucket.
Add 77 lbs for the quick attach
Add 115 lbs for the forks
Add 26 pounds for a cheap pallet
Add 63 concrete edgers scaled at 15.3 pounds per piece (963.9 lbs. Of concrete).

At 3100 rpm I was able to pick it up and move it 50 feet and set it back down. But then after a slight drizzle and a 10 minute rest . . I was not able to re-pick it up to take to destination . . so I removed 2 then 2 and finally 2 more edgers then making it a total of 57 edgers (872.1 pounds)

A dl95 loader on my gc1715 at 3150 rpm lifted and transported 200 feet up and down an incline the following

77 lbs + 115 lbs + 26 lbs + 872.1 pounds of payload. Total weight = 1090.1 lbs. Plus some rain water and 2 earth worms

I'd say with a mini grapple I'll be able to haul a good sized log or a biiig biiig bucket of rock Don't you agree?

Also . . Consider the 3 pt carrying capacity is even larger. Lastly there's another type of grapple that is made for the same quick attach unit. It is a "vertical grapple" capable of grabbing water heaters or tree trunks and picking them out of the ground. That doesn't mean eight inch diameter trees . . But certainly 3 or 4 inch diameter rooted trees.

A good scut . . is capable of tractor performance . . over and over again. Its not a baby tractor . . at least not when the fel can produce what my measured weights show.

Now a gc1705 would be a smaller number because it us 2.5 horses smaller. At 2600 rpm I couldn't lift thw same as I could at 3000 or 3150 rpm. The GC1715 cost me $1200 plus tax more than the gc1705. For that difference I got superior seat with added spring suspension comfort and better fit of seat. I got a rear light. I got more lifting power and mire mud and rear pto power . . And kept all the advantages of a great lawn cutting unit and moving, digging, wood handling tractor too.

And even with the quick attach, forks, and future grapple and remote and all sales tax and snow edge and tire loading I will be less than $18,500 and insurance for 5 years and have 3.49% loan interest rate.

Thats everything nikko . . Everything

Now I'll sit back and listen as everyonr else says you need bigger bigger bigger Nikko. And your decision is your own . . I simply presented my needs and slopes and etc. Etc. And why I chosr the way I did. Your decision is up to your needs.

 

[gladehound]

A gc1715 bare tractor including tires and wheels is 1419 lbs. Then you add in any loading of rears plus weight of a good quality mower deck (mine is 235 lbs a 60 inch is 275). So its 700 lbs different. But what about your front tires . . are they equal in size to a massey also?

My front tires have very low ground pressure because the front of the machine weighs almost nothing. I can pick it up with one hand so maybe 200-300 pounds and I'd guess closer to 200. The fronts never leave a mark or indentation anywhere. A SCUT would require much larger tires in the front than they have to achieve as low a ground pressure as my ZT has on the front tires. Overall compaction from a SCUT would be more because both ends are heavy compared to only the rear on my ZT - but I never indicated that a SCUT is too heavy to mow a lawn with.

You stated: " Based on your assessment, a 10,000 pound tractor should be just as easy on the lawn as your SCUT if the tire are big enough. "

That's your supposition glade . . And is exactly how septic system equipment works. Width spreads weight. Similarly wet ground ruts with smaller tires. But your logic fails in not fully including all conditions so you have an unbalanced situation. Going straight works but lawn cutting is about slopes and hills and circles. A turning radius is also required and 50 inch wide tires don't have it.

Actually, it was your supposition... see your quote below...

I have no more compaction or grass roughing than I do with my zero turn tractor . . Because the weight per inch of tire contact is the same (gc1715 tires are considerably wider than mower tires).

I'm applying the exact principle that you did going from your zero turn to your SCUT. You should also re-read my post. My logic did not fail. However it does seem that you failed to read the rest of my post. I went on to write "But this approach only gets you so far. As you turn tighter, one side of a wide tire travels faster than the other even though both side have to rotate at the same speed and this causes scuffing on the grass. The wider the tire, the wider you have to turn." So somehow you agreed with me and used the words "your logic fails" to make your agreement sound like an argument. In the process, you also falsely accused my logic of failing, which it did not.

As for your zero turn . . does it have 4wd? Does it have front wheel steering and front loaded tires? Is it a front mount deck?
If not . . I would NEVER drive it on a 20 degree slope especially going up the hill or on even a 10 degree sidehill.

I mow a 20 degree slope with it every week. Even when wet. No problems. However, I am not recommending it for anything more than what the manufacturer recommends, and that is 15 degrees. Notice I recommended a stand behind for steeper slopes. Or a SCUT might be fine too, but I feel more comfortable on a stand behind. You may not be very experienced with zero turn mowers, but they differ drastically from one model to another in terms of ability on slopes. Besides, the OP never indicated he had slopes over 15 degrees.

Finally I can't help but notice that you seem to be getting a little emotional on me. You know, the first rule of good debating is never get emotional

 

[gladehound]

Nikko,

I recently posted about the massey gc1715 as a lawn mowing machine. Now I'll talk about it as a tractor.

I have a long large concrete driveway with a considerable slope to it. I also have a front patio and rear patio of concrete and about 125 feet of 5 foot concrete sidewalk . . and we get wintet drifting too. So the GC will be using its bucket and/or bucket and snow edge often. And a lawn tractor will be equipped with a snowblower as well. My desire is to keep the fel on all winter . . so no $4500 snowblower for the gc1715. Too many snows will be bucket and snow edge. (Plow is too hard on concrete).

Then there is the brochure. Can you actually tell how much wdight the fel can lift? I can't. So on two different days I actually measured.

1st time I previously wrote about and it was 864 pounds of actual concrete I moved on pallet forked effort.

But I did it again yesterday in very controlled conditions.

Fel minus bucket.
Add 77 lbs for the quick attach
Add 115 lbs for the forks
Add 26 pounds for a cheap pallet
Add 63 concrete edgers scaled at 15.3 pounds per piece (963.9 lbs. Of concrete).

At 3100 rpm I was able to pick it up and move it 50 feet and set it back down. But then after a slight drizzle and a 10 minute rest . . I was not able to re-pick it up to take to destination . . so I removed 2 then 2 and finally 2 more edgers then making it a total of 57 edgers (872.1 pounds)

A dl95 loader on my gc1715 at 3150 rpm lifted and transported 200 feet up and down an incline the following

77 lbs + 115 lbs + 26 lbs + 872.1 pounds of payload. Total weight = 1090.1 lbs. Plus some rain water and 2 earth worms

I'd say with a mini grapple I'll be able to haul a good sized log or a biiig biiig bucket of rock Don't you agree?

Also . . Consider the 3 pt carrying capacity is even larger. Lastly there's another type of grapple that is made for the same quick attach unit. It is a "vertical grapple" capable of grabbing water heaters or tree trunks and picking them out of the ground. That doesn't mean eight inch diameter trees . . But certainly 3 or 4 inch diameter rooted trees.

A good scut . . is capable of tractor performance . . over and over again. Its not a baby tractor . . at least not when the fel can produce what my measured weights show.

Now a gc1705 would be a smaller number because it us 2.5 horses smaller. At 2600 rpm I couldn't lift thw same as I could at 3000 or 3150 rpm. The GC1715 cost me $1200 plus tax more than the gc1705. For that difference I got superior seat with added spring suspension comfort and better fit of seat. I got a rear light. I got more lifting power and mire mud and rear pto power . . And kept all the advantages of a great lawn cutting unit and moving, digging, wood handling tractor too.

And even with the quick attach, forks, and future grapple and remote and all sales tax and snow edge and tire loading I will be less than $18,500 and insurance for 5 years and have 3.49% loan interest rate.

Thats everything nikko . . Everything

Now I'll sit back and listen as everyonr else says you need bigger bigger bigger Nikko. And your decision is your own . . I simply presented my needs and slopes and etc. Etc. And why I chosr the way I did. Your decision is up to your needs.

Good to know Axle. For comparison, I can pick up >3000 pounds at idle regardless of if it's raining or not. And my tractor cost $22K w quick attach loader, tooth bucket, snow bucket, forks, filled rears, rear remote and tax.

 

[AxleHub]

Finally I can't help but notice that you seem to be getting a little emotional on me. You know, the first rule of good debating is never get emotional

Greetings glade,

You are incorrectly reading any level of emotion on my part.

However you created a supposition 5 times the size of my point. In debate there is a word for it "strawman argument" and that was your creation. My post clearly talked about weight and manueverability while you chose weight as your "supposition".

Also I've driven many zero turns in my life and the best ones have significant front weight or front leveraged wheel base (front mount) because flip over going up steep hills is a big concern with big rear tires and big engines and light front ends. Also if you have no front wheel steering control then sidehills are another big issue. I'm pleased you never have a problem . . but I know way too many who have. I'm glad you're happy with your's but it would have a value to me only as quickly as I could sell it. Now if you have a zero turn lawn tractor (not rider) . . that's a whole different story and I love those.

Sorry you miss-read my emotional state or miss-read my weaknesses. Maybe you're doing that with Nikko too