Ethanol - A new battle brewing?

[Copperhead]

I can concede that one may lose some mpg on E10, but the inflated amount of mpg lose does not square with the numbers. From the numbers I posted direct from recognized data on BTU content of E0 and E10, there is only a 2% BTU loss between the fuels. For mpg loss to exceed 5% seems like something else is going on that is not related to the fuel. Conceding 5% loss is generous, to concede that there is more loss, I would have to see some serious data.

It is not a federally imposed subsidy because the ethanol producers do not sell the fuel to retailers or the government. It is sold on the commodity market just like any other fuel. The government can only mandate the use, not the price or even the availability of the product. If it cannot be made profitably on the market, then there is no reason to make it. Ethanol producers are not going to continue to operate at a loss. They are private entities, not government entities. The Feds can mandate all they want, but they cannot make anyone brew the stuff or what the commodities exchange prices it at, and if no one does make the stuff, the government is just going to have to open their own ethanol plants. The only reason that anyone makes the stuff is to make a profit. The profit is determined by the commodities market. If the market will not pay more for it than what it can be made for, then the ethanol producers restrict or stop production. Again, simple economics.

Well, there is one way... if it were to become unprofitable to make the stuff here, then someone would make a profit by importing it. But there again, the government cannot mandate anyone import anything.

 

[Patches]

While I'll agree with most of your opinions as stated, you can not disagree that the feds can, and do, mandate the use of ethanol and I can assure you, forbid fuel stations on the east coast, especially New England, selling anything BUT ethanol laced gasoline. Whether they do this as a given subsidy to corn farmers or not is a moot point; it is a fact that corn producers benefit, hugely, from this mandate. In your own words, "The only reason anyone makes the stuff is to make a profit." I offer that ethanol would not be a fuel additive if not mandated by the federal government.

 

[Copperhead]

Well, to some degree. Ethanol was not mandated in gasoline for several decades before the mandates came into being, but E10 was available in many areas as an option. So it is a little bit of an error to say that ethanol would not be a fuel additive if not mandated by the Feds. We were buying the stuff, termed Gasohol back in the day, since the middle to late 70's, long before any mandates were dreamed up. Those came about later primarily because MTBE, an oxygenate that was mandated in some gasoline on a regional basis, was determined to be more hazardous, so ethanol was viewed as a less toxic replacement. And even with that, there are many areas of the country that still have no mandate. Many folks around the country can get ethanol free regular and premium any day of the year.

 

[Ford850]

Does Ethanol provide a lower cost way to cut fuel, providing a slightly lower priced product?

 

[jix]

Gasohol does not seriously impact on the availability of fuel. .only on the market price of offshore oil. (supply and demand) Ethanol is harder on engines (especially if it gets stale in storage and begins to turn sticky) I use only pure ethyl fuel in any engines I have, (except for diesel engines of course) In Canada, non alcohol gas i about 20% more expensive, but if you look at the costs of using !0% methyl alcohol. it is not much more costly to use straight hi test gas.. Better starting, better fuel economy, longer storage life, fewer plastic components ruined better wear and tear on engines, et al. Especially a two stroke engine fuel such as an outboard motor, chainsaw, etc.

I will not use gasohol at all. I don't think there is much, if any saving in it. FWIW

Jix

 

[Patches]

Copperhead, I guess I'll agree to disagree with ya, as we will never reach the middle ground; I can only tell you I hate the da-- stuff, but I can readily see there is no end to it, as they are already promising ethanol in an ever increasing % of REAL fuel. I guess then I can bi--- about a small engine manufacturer's subsidy as all the stuff we have now will have to be replaced with more alcohol tolerant designs. God, I hate big brother

 

[Copperhead]

Agreed. We will not see this issue the same way. I really have no bias, nor does anything I have that uses gas, on whether we have ethanol in fuel or not. I will do just fine either way. Have since E10 showed up 4 decades ago. And when I see how the government spent 3.5 million dollars to promote weight loss for truck drivers, 200K to analyze senior dating practices, and whatever else to study why monkeys have doo doo fights at the zoo, at least we are getting something from whatever government mandate is promoting ethanol. If it all goes away tomorrow, I will neither weep or shout with joy. Just doesn't register very high on my concern meter. I am only interested in the fuel that delivers the lowest cost per mile for me. Right now that happens to be E15. Next month it might be something else. I do like having a flex fuel vehicle so I have the freedom to choose anything from E0 thru E85 any day of the year.

 

[Copperhead]

Does Ethanol provide a lower cost way to cut fuel, providing a slightly lower priced product?

It is all relative to where one lives. I can only make determinations on fuel how how it affects me in my area.

E0 Regular is currently $2.36 in my area. My 2015 2500HD 6.0L gets an overall average from it of around 15 mpg, or roughly 15.75 cents a mile. E10 is currently $1.92. I get about 14 mpg from it, or roughly 13.71 cents a mile. 2 cents a mile cheaper than E0. E15, I filled up today at $1.82. I get the same mpg from it as I do E10, for a cost per mile of 13 cents a mile. So I save almost 3 cents a mile by using it over E0. So that is what is going in the tank right now. Sure, I lost about 1 mpg by using E15 instead of E0, but I also save 3 cents a mile in the process.

If all the fuels were the same price, I would fill with non-ethanol as it would be the least cost per mile. My wallet is not concerned with greenie issues, farm subsidies, ethanol mandates, whatever. It is only concerned with keeping as much money left in it as it can. to that end, I will buy the fuel that gives me the lowest cost per mile to use.

In all fairness, I fill my fuel drum for my small engine stuff with ethanol free. I can go quite a while before I need to fill the drum again, and the gas has to sit for a while. though I treat it with stabilizer, I am not partial to E10 sitting for extended period of time.

 

[DarkBlack]

It is all relative to where one lives. I can only make determinations on fuel how how it affects me in my area.

E0 Regular is currently $2.36 in my area. My 2015 2500HD 6.0L gets an overall average from it of around 15 mpg, or roughly 15.75 cents a mile. E10 is currently $1.92. I get about 14 mpg from a it, or roughly 13.71 cents a mile. 2 cents a mile cheaper than E0. E15, I filled up today at $1.82. I get the same mpg from it as I do E10, for a cost per mile of 13 cents a mile. So I save almost 3 cents a mile by using it over E0. So that is what is going in the tank right now. Sure, I lost about 1 mpg by using E15 instead of E0, but I also save 3 cents a mile in the process.

If all the fuels were the same price, I would fill with non-ethanol as it would be the least cost per mile. My wallet is not concerned with greenie issues, farm subsidies, ethanol mandates, whatever. It is only concerned with keeping as much money left in it as it can. to that end, I will buy the fuel that gives me the lowest cost per mile to use.

In all fairness, I fill my fuel drum for my small engine stuff with ethanol free. I can go quite a while before I need to fill the drum again, and the gas has to sit for a while. though I treat it with stabilizer, I am not partial to E10 sitting for extended period of time.

How do you make out tax forms for the irs?
Are you able to pass off all your ethanol sales hours on the net like this as your personal time ?

 

[Copperhead]

LOL! Great dig. But I am not sure how I can be pigeon holed in to a spokesman for ethanol. I made it quite clear I can live with it or without it. I only concern myself with cost per mile of operating my stuff.