Ethanol - A new battle brewing?

[KubotainNH]

For everybody claiming they can't get ethanol-free gas, you might wanna check this out

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Just click on your state in the list -

I only buy E10 for vehicles, and don't even like doing that. Pretty much stopped fighting engine problems in ALL my small engine stuff when I stopped putting "congressional gas" in them... Steve

That right there states some folks point, in all of Maine there's 10 places to get non-ethanol gas and they are all airports or marinas. My guess is the price is at least a buck more a gallon. NH and MA are similar, I have one near me and that sells 110 octane racing gas, no others even close. Here's one note from that website: "I called and verified they do still sell 110 octane leaded racing fuel. It is $9.10 per gallon. This fuel is not suitable for vehicles with catalytic converters. It is suitable for other uses like lawn garden equipment, boats, classic cars, motorcycles, etc."

Check out the map view on that site.

I don't know who controls what for gas in this area, maybe it's just that no one is taking the chance on selling pure gas. Interesting topic though.

 

[reggiejr]

91 octane Non ethanol gasoline is very difficult to come by up here and from what I understand it comes out of Canada the places that carry this fuel in my area run out of it very quickly and now they say they can't get more until spring people stock up when they can get it and it's almost 5.00 a gallon.
If we had the option to get non ethanol at the pump right next to the 10% it would sell like crazy people hate ethanol gas up here it causes us lots of unnecessary grief with all our non automotive engines and the storage supplements these ethanol blends requires are not cheap. Wish all the politics didn't drive these foolish things all we want is good gas that doesn't go bad in two months. Now the are trying to ruin the good old reliable diesel engine next.
We have a bunch of new plow trucks here and in the middle of a blizzard we are trying to fight we have to pull over and regen for 15 to 30 minutes and sit there at high idle not accomplishing anything.I here it all the time on the radio I have to stop and regen this is the dumbest thing i've ever seen. I don't understand why every state has different ethanol rules very confusing. I'm all for supporting the farmer if we all stopped using ethanol tomorrow would it really even hurt any of them???

 

[Ford850]

For everybody claiming they can't get ethanol-free gas, you might wanna check this out

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Just click on your state in the list -

I only buy E10 for vehicles, and don't even like doing that. Pretty much stopped fighting engine problems in ALL my small engine stuff when I stopped putting "congressional gas" in them... Steve

If I drive to the towns that have it, I can get it for $4 - $6 per gallon. Insane prices when regular unleaded with blend is $1.75.

 

[Ford850]

...
I don't care for the Ethanol PERIOD!!! it seems to cause a gel residue that requires carb/injector cleaning more frequently. Hence, you are forced to purchase an anti-ethanol additive. I'm sure that soybeans or carrots & peas will become the next greatest fuel additive to come along!

I've never heard of this. In fact, everything I've read points to one of the benefits (the only one in my opinion) being how well it cleans fuel systems. Many recommend running a full tank or 2 of E85 annually to avoid the need for injector cleaners etc.

 

[Copperhead]

You can get the same power. You will use more fuel to do it. You can't get away from the energy content. The BTU released translates directly into pressure which becomes torque which becomes horsepower.

Not in the motors I listed. They are getting similar power as from engines with twice the displacement, and getting better mpg at the same time. Again, when the engine is designed for something like E85 specifically, and when one takes advantage of the characteristics of the fuel, it can be a very good, viable fuel. Those motors are using higher compression, direct injection, and turbocharging. For a V6 to get the similar hp, torque, and fuel economy as a 6.6L Dmax diesel, it shows that they are not using more fuel to get that power, they are taking advantage of the characteristics of the fuel to achieve that. The cooling effect of the ethanol, the higher octane rating, and several other characteristics allow it to do things, with an engine that is designed for it, that put it solidly into diesel territory in terms of power and economy. The motors have been developed. All you have to do is pull your head out of the sand and take a look at them. Cummins is already moving their 2.8L E85 motor to market in some commercial vans in the not to distant future. R&D is almost over. Same power as a 5.7L Hemi engine and better fuel economy.

The energy content is one thing, but there is more to the fuel than just the energy content. You have to get beyond the stoichiometric fuel to air ratios of naturally aspirated engines to see the reasoning.

Just a look at modern engines should tell you that you do not need more fuel to get more power. Many auto engines are developing twice the power of a couple of decades ago, and doing so while getting double the fuel economy. The idea that the energy content of a fuel is the major factor is hogwash.

 

[DarkBlack]

When I was circle track racing, it always stood out how the ethanol powered cars ran larger fuel tanks to offset the lower energy/gallon.

 

[Creamer]

I've never heard of this. In fact, everything I've read points to one of the benefits (the only one in my opinion) being how well it cleans fuel systems. Many recommend running a full tank or 2 of E85 annually to avoid the need for injector cleaners etc.

I agree! I have worked in automotive fuel systems design for many years and this isn't a known characteristic of ethanol. I am well aware of the differences caused by ethanol such as seal material changes and the like but ethanol is known as a cleaner which is why the old STP had a lot of ethanol in it and the "Heat" product was primarily ethanol because it helped push the water through the system instead of letting it build up in tanks and causing gasline freeze. As for mileage drops - that is to be expected just due to the energy content and the fact that many cars sense the type of fuel they are burning and adjust accordingly, i.e. inject more ethanol blended fuel that pure gasoline, to retain the best performance and lowest emissions.

 

[Terry1040]

Need to get up to speed. Ethanol subsidies died in 2011 when they were not renewed in the farm bill. There are some grants, tax credits, etc for ethanol blender pumps, but that is retail gas station stuff, not ethanol producers.

One of the main reasons for ethanol production is corn price stability. Corn prices are low now, and without price being somewhat stable due to ethanol, the price would go into the basement and the taxpayer would be shelling out grain price support subsidies. Right now, on an inflation adjusted basis, corn prices are lower than in the mid 90's. All of this hoopla by livestock producers over ethanol costing them more in grain price is a ruse. They want $1 a bushel corn. No different than folks wanting $1 a gallon fuel. They cry and whine about feed, but they fail to mention that livestock market prices are doing very well.

It's really simple. Folks with a bias against ethanol will continue to see conspiracies, black helicopters, and suck up every bit of stuff on the net that justifies their preconceived mindset. And those that have a stake in ethanol are not much different. Then there those of us who are neutral and we have flex fuel vehicles, know what the fuel economy is on different blends of ethanol and ethanol free, then we look at prevailing price at the pump and choose whatever offers the lowest cost per mile to use. No bias, just a business mindset.

YOU ARE 100% correct !!

 

[void777]

Can we look at E10 15 or85 as a back door way to use more fuel therefore more road tax and I belive this state and federal gov will continue down this path regardless of what U and I lobby them to do.

 

[Copperhead]

Sure we can. It is a valid concern. But how that affects the user is another. Fuel tax is part of the price at the pump. How is affects the cost per mile to the user may or may not be an issue.

At current pricing, I can get E0 regular for $2.36 a gallon, E10 for $1.93, and E15 for $1.86. Checked on the pricing last night in town while getting a little E0 for a special application motor. Each vehicle is different, but my 2015 2500HD 6.0L flex fuel motor does just about the same mpg on either one of these fuels. Maybe a tenth or two lower at the E15 level. But for the purpose of discussion here, I will go with a 1 mpg lower for E10 than E0 to figure things.

If I average 15 mpg on E0, that equates to roughly 15.7 cents a mile fuel cost at $2.36 a gallon. Lets say I lose a full mpg by using E10. At $1.93 a gallon and 14 mpg, the fuel cost per mile is 13.7 cents a mile. So while I lost 1 mpg, I also reduced my fuel cost per mile by 2 cents. Since there is no appreciable mpg difference between E10 and E15 in my pickup, at $1.86 a gallon, I shave another 1/2 cent a mile off my fuel costs, to where it costs me 2.5 cents a mile more to use E0 than it does E15. I am a businessman. I'll save the 2.5 cents a mile and use E15. My wallet is only concerned with financials, not ideologies.

So with E10, while mpg is down, fuel use is up, and the government is getting a larger chunk of cash, the actual fuel cost to me, on a per mile basis, is less than if the fuel was non ethanol. Of course, the pricing varies in different areas of the country, and might not work out the same way. I can only use numbers from my area for figuring my cost per mile.