Any one use a ventless gas stove for heating.???

[crackerjack222]

Unfortunately there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. kOua has the chemistry right, there is little to no chance of a properly functioning ventless gas/propane heater to cause a problem. I grew up with them heating the whole house, one in each room. This was in south TX so they were not on all the time. Only one was thermostat controlled.
I now have a house in northern NM where temps get low (ie below zero). We were there a couple of weeks ago and saw temps of 5* to high of about 23*. The house is well insulated and tight. It has a propane forced air furnace, a wood stove, a thermostated ventless 20k BTU wall heater and a ceiling fan in the vaulted main room. The furnace will not come on when set to 60* as long as the wood stove, fan and ventless were going. Yes the ventless generates moisture, but that is a good thing when the RH is in the 5-15 range. We keep a portable humidifier going in the bedrooms at night.... I have never seen any evidence of film, excess moisture or CO (we have both CO and smoke detectors). There has been once or twice that I have had to open a window slightly to replenish O2 to keep the pilot going on the ventless (altitude there is 8850').

 

[newbury]

A ventless heater burning propane or natural gas puts all the products of combustion into the room air. Carbon, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, and sulfur dioxide among others. The heater also causes the air to increase its water capacity so it being dry it sucks water from everything around. Then when the air hits a cold spot like windows it condenses along with residue from those gases. Nat gas contains a lot of moisture so burning that releases it into the air. By all means if you want to live in all those gas emissions be my guest; if you are lucky you will live to tell about it.

Talk to your local Fire dept about this. They are experts at solving the things that go wrong with all those emissions.

Ron

Another internet expert.

The only time they produce carbon monoxide is when there is not enough oxygen to produce carbon dioxide and water. If they are running correctly there is no CO (carbon monoxide) produced. I don't know where this hydrogen sulfide idea comes from.. There is no sulfur in propane to produce this poisonous gas in any kind of reaction.

Here is the normal reaction in the presence of sufficient oxygen. C3H8 + 5O2 → 3 CO2 + 4 H2O + heat

Here is the reaction in the presence of not enough oxygen.2 C3H8 + 9 O2 → 4 CO2 + 2 CO + 8 H2O + heat

Notice the production of the 2 CO (carbon monoxide) molecules. Of course Carbon Monoxide is lethal. Note also in each case the production of water (H2O) . The O2 is of course is free oxygen molecules in our air. and the C3H8 represents the propane molecule itself. I hope this clears up some misunderstanding of the chemical reaction that occurs when you burn propane.

Good lecture, I fully agree.
Could you provide that with pics of the molecules in ball and stick form

However there is sulfur in propane. Just minute amounts.

Sulfur Oxides -
Emissions of SO2 from natural gas-fired boilers are low because pipeline quality natural gas
typically has sulfur levels of 2,000 grains per million cubic feet.

from EPA
About 1 Pound per Billion Btu of Energy - from here.

Bottom line is that natural gas is about the cleanest form of energy from organic sources. Though SWMBO does not like my natural gas produced after a pot of beans.

 

[kenmac]

I remember seeing some of those furnaces .where someone used copper for the venting material.. Really unusual

 

[k0ua]

Good lecture, I fully agree.
Could you provide that with pics of the molecules in ball and stick form

I could draw it out and take a picture, but it is too much trouble. Just keep in mind that the carbon atoms have a valence of 4 and the hydrogen is valence of 1 and the oxygen is two.. since propane has 3 carbon atoms and 8 hydrogen atoms.. well you can picture it can't you

 

[kenmac]

There has been once or twice that I have had to open a window slightly to replenish O2 to keep the pilot going on the ventless (altitude there is 8850').

in my 30+ yrs of installing and working on all types ventless.. I have never seen a case where a ventless heater, logs consumed enough oxygen in the room to activate the ODS pilot system, and shut the heater / logs down..
I have seen it in a controlled environment , during testing ,where the ODS pilot would activate ,and shut down the heater

 

[k0ua]

ODS= Oxygen Depletion Sensor for those of us not in the business.

 

[k0ua]

And by the way, how does that ODS actually work anyway.. I have never understood how it works.. The Thermocouple I understand, but that little ODS thingy just looks like some sheet metal pieces to me..

 

[kenmac]

U knew what it was ..I knew I couldn't stump you... LOL

 

[kenmac]

And by the way, how does that ODS actually work anyway.. I have never understood how it works.. The Thermocouple I understand, but that little ODS thingy just looks like some sheet metal pieces to me..

It's magic !! How Does an ODS Make A Vent Free Gas Log Fireplace Safe

You will note.. all these appliances will be 40,000 but or less or the rules change
Like an on demand water heater, 199,900 btu.. the rules change for a rating of 200,000 btu. It would be considered a boiler, or pressure vessel and would have to be tested /rated as such

 

[k0ua]

It's magic !! How Does an ODS Make A Vent Free Gas Log Fireplace Safe

You will note.. all these appliances will be 40,000 but or less or the rules change
Like an on demand water heater, 199,900 btu.. the rules change for a rating of 200,000 btu. It would be considered a boiler, or pressure vessel and would have to be tested /rated as such

Thanks for the link. I see it is nothing more than the design of the orifice itself that causes the flame to lift away from the orifice end when oxygen levels fall and miss hitting the thermocouple, and that of course causes the magnetic valve to snap shut and prevent main burner from opening. OK, cool, I know more than I did.