Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[Larry Caldwell]

I don't want to disappoint you. However there are no other elements on earth that will provide the energy density of lithium batteries. At room temperature, atmospheric pressure , not being overly toxic or dangerous.
A pound of lithium is just as energy limited as a pound of gasoline. There is a set limit, no more. As in gasoline the efficiency of use can be improved at a price but there is a limit. Same goes for lithium. There can be some improvements to try and lower resistance which will lower waste heat and potential fires during charge and discharge. There are just so many moles per pound of lithium, you can't add more. And please don't be offended when the truth is not what you want to hear.

As Isaac Asimov once pointed out, any scientist that says something can't be done is probably wrong. If energy density per pound is your criterion, here is a configuration that is much lighter per watt-second, charges much faster, and is more stable over time.

Solid-state capacitor said to combine best qualities of batteries and capacitors

 

[OldMcDonald]

Terry1040, A very belated Happy New Year to you too. It has taken me a while to catch up on this thread, and over the course of the last three days have managed to read from your OP to Page 20, then skipped a few and read the last four. Reading the whole thread over a relatively short time span shows a lot of repetitive posts by some people every few days or so.

Anyway since you (and presumably a few other people on here) are really interested in real life succesfull solar power projects I suggest you look at some of the completed projects on BuildItSolar: Solar energy projects for Do It Yourselfers to save money and reduce pollution and also Simply Solar both of which consist almost exclusively of projects in Canada and the US. See how people in even below zero temperatures are heating their homes with solar.

I do not have a link to a good wind power site because it does not particularly interest me - EXCEPT that about half of the power I buy is generated by windmills. The info I have to hand is for the calendar year 2014 and shown on my latest electric bill. My former supplier used to provide more updated figures for particular months and running about three months behind. Wind often exceeded 50% by a big margin.

The 2014 %age figures are Wind 47.9; Hydro 15.3; Other renewables (mainly solar, some biomass) 10.0; Fossil fuels 20.4% and Other (I believe mainly nuclear purchased from Spain) 6.4. So roughly threequarters of all the electricity generated in Portugal in 2014 came from renewables.

The Laws of Physics have been mentioned on a few occasions in this thread, and as we all know "Ye cannae change the Laws o' Physics, Cap'n) so, having an idea that I would rather like to have some hydronic underfloor heating I asked a physicist of some international renown - at the ripe old age of 29 he was invited to give a short series of talks -Cornell, Harvard, NASA Baltimore and Washington to do some calculations for me. It is all very well for people to tell me that "it will work" but like B&D I prefer to have the facts and figures according to the Laws of Physics if I am to lay out my very limited spare money on a project. It is necessary to have some knowledge of the relationship of Watts,Metres and Kelvin to do the equations. He tells me it will work. I am lucky that I had access to this physicist, but I bred him, so can ask favours now and again.

 

[buickanddeere]

As Isaac Asimov once pointed out, any scientist that says something can't be done is probably wrong. If energy density per pound is your criterion, here is a configuration that is much lighter per watt-second, charges much faster, and is more stable over time.

Solid-state capacitor said to combine best qualities of batteries and capacitors

"Isaac Asimov (/ˈaɪzᵻk ˈæzᵻmɒv/;[2] born Isaak Yudovich Ozimov; circa January 2, 1920[1] – April 6, 1992) was an American author and professor of biochemistry at Boston University, best known for his works of science fiction and for his popular science books."


There is a place for capacitors as "storing a static charge" avoids having to pass electrons into and out of an electrolyte. The capacitor's internal resistance is lower than the classic battery which reduces waste heat during charge and discharge. Power filtration. And UPS units that need to be reliable at all temperatures and without regular service. where weight,size and energy density is less important.
The challenge is still how to store enough energy in a small enough and light enough system that is not toxic and doesn't explode and burn
very often.
As most people have finally accepted there is no way to add a magic carburetor to 20mpg vehicle and obtain 200mpg . There is a fixed 114,000 btu in that gallon of gasoline. There too lays the fact that a pound of lead, NiMi, sodium or lithium all has a set number of moles per pound. There is no way research is going to add more electrons to that pound of battery plate materiel. Research has about topped out the max rate of charge and discharge with various construction types.
If there was some super battery with two to 10 times more energy density than current lithium batteries used in the latest electric vehicles. The automotive manufactures and the military and space industry for certain would be utilizing such battery tech . They are not using super battery because it exists only on science fiction shelves beside Isaac Asimov's 200mpg carburetor.

 

[buickanddeere]

Terry1040,

Anyway since you (and presumably a few other people on here) are really interested in real life succesfull solar power projects I suggest you look at some of the completed projects on BuildItSolar: Solar energy projects for Do It Yourselfers to save money and reduce pollution and also Simply Solar both of which consist almost exclusively of projects in Canada and the US. See how people in even below zero temperatures are heating their homes with solar.

I do not have a link to a good wind power site because it does not particularly interest me - EXCEPT that about half of the power I buy is generated by windmills. The info I have to hand is for the calendar year 2014 and shown on my latest electric bill. My former supplier used to provide more updated figures for particular months and running about three months behind. Wind often exceeded 50% by a big margin.

The 2014 %age figures are Wind 47.9; Hydro 15.3; Other renewables (mainly solar, some biomass) 10.0; Fossil fuels 20.4% and Other (I believe mainly nuclear purchased from Spain) 6.4. So roughly threequarters of all the electricity generated in Portugal in 2014 came from renewables.

The Laws of Physics have been mentioned on a few occasions in this thread, and as we all know "Ye cannae change the Laws o' Physics, Cap'n) so, having an idea that I would rather like to have some hydronic underfloor heating I asked a physicist of some international renown - at the ripe old age of 29 he was invited to give a short series of talks -Cornell, Harvard, NASA Baltimore and Washington to do some calculations for me. It is all very well for people to tell me that "it will work" but like B&D I prefer to have the facts and figures according to the Laws of Physics if I am to lay out my very limited spare money on a project. It is necessary to have some knowledge of the relationship of Watts,Metres and Kelvin to do the equations. He tells me it will work. I am lucky that I had access to this physicist, but I bred him, so can ask favours now and again.

Did you ask the Americans if they are willing to pay over 30cents US per Kw/hr to subsidize wind and solar ? Kw/hr per capita in Portugal is also lower than American consumption.
How many US citizens have the time, money, expertise and the type of residence to use solar heating in winter ? The solar panels across the road from my house spend days at a time covered with snow, a problem that Portugal does not have. Portugal is also a small country with a high population density. Power transmission lines from phoenix arizona solar to new york loads of 2400 miles distance is not a consideration.


Web Filter

 

[Redneck in training]

"Isaac Asimov (/ˈaɪzᵻk ˈ諂ᵻmɒv/;[2] born Isaak Yudovich Ozimov; circa January 2, 1920[1] April 6, 1992) was an American author and professor of biochemistry at Boston University, best known for his works of science fiction and for his popular science books."


There is a place for capacitors as "storing a static charge" avoids having to pass electrons into and out of an electrolyte. The capacitor's internal resistance is lower than the classic battery which reduces waste heat during charge and discharge. Power filtration. And UPS units that need to be reliable at all temperatures and without regular service. where weight,size and energy density is less important.
The challenge is still how to store enough energy in a small enough and light enough system that is not toxic and doesn't explode and burn
very often.
As most people have finally accepted there is no way to add a magic carburetor to 20mpg vehicle and obtain 200mpg . There is a fixed 114,000 btu in that gallon of gasoline. There too lays the fact that a pound of lead, NiMi, sodium or lithium all has a set number of moles per pound. There is no way research is going to add more electrons to that pound of battery plate materiel. Research has about topped out the max rate of charge and discharge with various construction types.
If there was some super battery with two to 10 times more energy density than current lithium batteries used in the latest electric vehicles. The automotive manufactures and the military and space industry for certain would be utilizing such battery tech . They are not using super battery because it exists only on science fiction shelves beside Isaac Asimov's 200mpg carburetor.

Power density is important for transportation, satellites etc but for stationary energy storage number of cycles/life and cost/kWh are important. Size or mass are of lesser importance. If the cost per 1 kWh drops to 100 USD while the storage lasts at least 10 years with daily cycling acceptance of energy storage will accelerate to mass numbers. I am pretty sure that there is some company working on a software that will integrate such storage to the power grid. In example the software would be able to ask the storage to supply power during spikes in the consumption. In example I know about a machine that can be started and run only at night, all power generators around have to be notified and have to give permission to do so and even then lights in all San Francisco go dim for few seconds. Solid state energy storage (if large enough) could cover such spike instantly without lights dimming.

 

[Redneck in training]

Did you ask the Americans if they are willing to pay over 30cents US per Kw/hr to subsidize wind and solar ? Kw/hr per capita in Portugal is also lower than American consumption.
How many US citizens have the time, money, expertise and the type of residence to use solar heating in winter ? The solar panels across the road from my house spend days at a time covered with snow, a problem that Portugal does not have. Portugal is also a small country with a high population density. Power transmission lines from phoenix arizona solar to new york loads of 2400 miles distance is not a consideration.


Web Filter

My PV installation cost was 54000 USD before tax rebate. It should produce about 900000 kWh over 25 year of its expected life. 54000/900000=0.06 USD/kWh. If tax rebate is taken into account it would produce 1 kWh for 0.039 USD. Needless to say that my installation was about 20-25% more expensive than system placed on a roof.

 

[OldMcDonald]

Did you ask the Americans if they are willing to pay over 30cents US per Kw/hr to subsidize wind and solar ? Kw/hr per capita in Portugal is also lower than American consumption.
How many US citizens have the time, money, expertise and the type of residence to use solar heating in winter ? The solar panels across the road from my house spend days at a time covered with snow, a problem that Portugal does not have. Portugal is also a small country with a high population density. Power transmission lines from phoenix arizona solar to new york loads of 2400 miles distance is not a consideration.
..................................

B&D, Why did you go on the attack and raise issues I never mentioned? I came on here to offer some information to the OP who had requested it. I most certainly did not attack you. In fact I said that like yourself I want to know that an idea I had will work in accordance with the Laws of Physics. You surely cannot condemn me for agreeing with you? Where I might disagree is about the use of nuclear. Not because I think it is inherently unsafe or bad, but because (again as you yourself have pointed out in relation to Fukishima) stupid people do stupid things and problems happen. Additionally cases of failure to properly maintain happen from time to time. If something goes wrong with other power generation there is much less damage and it is easier fixed. Although, having seen a report some time ago about the state of some of the dams holding back water in the US I think one of those failing would be quite a catastrophe - but yet again human failure to do something before it happens would be the cause.

I never suggested that US taxpayers should subsidise any system - although as you and I and everyone else knows, many industries are subsidised. Renewable energy should stand alone unsubsidised, but governments tend to want to interfere in all aspects of life, and some choose to subsidise various industries, including renewables. The UK has seen the folly of this and is seriously curtailing these subsidised schemes. I think I am right in saying that Portugal does not subsidise individual personal projects, although it did at one time.

So far as building a solar heating system for personal use is concerned, just have a look at the links I gave and see how simple and cheap it can be. Especially look for the Canadian solar users. An initial experiment is to make (or use an existing) box, paint it black inside, take a duct out of the top and feed the hot air into your house through a window; blanking off the rest of the opened part of course. Or even simpler, just feel the heat coming out of the top. Obviously those living in high rise flats cannot do this, but there are many millions of people living in houses that sit on the ground.

If your neighbour's solar panels are covered in snow, then the occupants of the house obviously do not know what they are doing. If cleared of snow, the reflection from the snow covered ground actually improves the solar gain. As it happens here in Portugal the snow fields and ski lifts are about 40 miles from me.

Population density is not the end of whether a country is overcrowded or not. Like Australia, the majority of Portugal's residents live close to the coast, and the inland rural areas are quite sparsely populated, but obviously not to the same extent as Australia and N America. Why attempt to transport solar power from Phoenix to New York? Have you ever heard of anyone suggesting it? It seems like a hare-brained idea to me. If solar power is decided to be used for New York, then the obvious answer is to build the solar collectors closer. You will have noted that despite having an extremely sunny climate, there is very little use of solar power in Portugal for electricity generation. I think, but do not know, that a lot of what is produced is from small scale projects feeding back into the grid. Solar power is used of course for heating domestic hot water systems - an ideal use of solar power, and one that is used for blocks of high rise flats. Almost any house can have such a system, and the payback is satisfactory. You do need to have the cash to lay out in the first place, or the borrowing power, but that applies to anything you want to buy.

I have read many hundreds of your posts since I joined TBN about a year after you, and I have enjoyed reading most of them, also learned a few things from you, so I feel I can suggest that perhaps you should have an open mind on the possibility that some renewable energy schemes can be successful and can be profitable without being subsidised. Please take the time to have a look at some of the schemes which have been done by individuals and ask them directly about any questions you have.

 

[buickanddeere]

Power density is important for transportation, satellites etc but for stationary energy storage number of cycles/life and cost/kWh are important. Size or mass are of lesser importance. If the cost per 1 kWh drops to 100 USD while the storage lasts at least 10 years with daily cycling acceptance of energy storage will accelerate to mass numbers. I am pretty sure that there is some company working on a software that will integrate such storage to the power grid. In example the software would be able to ask the storage to supply power during spikes in the consumption. In example I know about a machine that can be started and run only at night, all power generators around have to be notified and have to give permission to do so and even then lights in all San Francisco go dim for few seconds. Solid state energy storage (if large enough) could cover such spike instantly without lights dimming.

It was that way with the blower fans at the heavy water plant. 13.8Kv motors with across the line starters.

 

[buickanddeere]

Did you ask the Americans if they are willing to pay over 30cents US per Kw/hr to subsidize wind and solar ? Kw/hr per capita in Portugal is also lower than American consumption.
How many US citizens have the time, money, expertise and the type of residence to use solar heating in winter ? The solar panels across the road from my house spend days at a time covered with snow, a problem that Portugal does not have. Portugal is also a small country with a high population density. Power transmission lines from phoenix arizona solar to new york loads of 2400 miles distance is not a consideration.
..................................

B&D, Why did you go on the attack and raise issues I never mentioned? I came on here to offer some information to the OP who had requested it. I most certainly did not attack you. In fact I said that like yourself I want to know that an idea I had will work in accordance with the Laws of Physics. You surely cannot condemn me for agreeing with you? Where I might disagree is about the use of nuclear. Not because I think it is inherently unsafe or bad, but because (again as you yourself have pointed out in relation to Fukishima) stupid people do stupid things and problems happen. Additionally cases of failure to properly maintain happen from time to time. If something goes wrong with other power generation there is much less damage and it is easier fixed. Although, having seen a report some time ago about the state of some of the dams holding back water in the US I think one of those failing would be quite a catastrophe - but yet again human failure to do something before it happens would be the cause.

I never suggested that US taxpayers should subsidise any system - although as you and I and everyone else knows, many industries are subsidised. Renewable energy should stand alone unsubsidised, but governments tend to want to interfere in all aspects of life, and some choose to subsidise various industries, including renewables. The UK has seen the folly of this and is seriously curtailing these subsidised schemes. I think I am right in saying that Portugal does not subsidise individual personal projects, although it did at one time.

So far as building a solar heating system for personal use is concerned, just have a look at the links I gave and see how simple and cheap it can be. Especially look for the Canadian solar users. An initial experiment is to make (or use an existing) box, paint it black inside, take a duct out of the top and feed the hot air into your house through a window; blanking off the rest of the opened part of course. Or even simpler, just feel the heat coming out of the top. Obviously those living in high rise flats cannot do this, but there are many millions of people living in houses that sit on the ground.

If your neighbour's solar panels are covered in snow, then the occupants of the house obviously do not know what they are doing. If cleared of snow, the reflection from the snow covered ground actually improves the solar gain. As it happens here in Portugal the snow fields and ski lifts are about 40 miles from me.

Population density is not the end of whether a country is overcrowded or not. Like Australia, the majority of Portugal's residents live close to the coast, and the inland rural areas are quite sparsely populated, but obviously not to the same extent as Australia and N America. Why attempt to transport solar power from Phoenix to New York? Have you ever heard of anyone suggesting it? It seems like a hare-brained idea to me. If solar power is decided to be used for New York, then the obvious answer is to build the solar collectors closer. You will have noted that despite having an extremely sunny climate, there is very little use of solar power in Portugal for electricity generation. I think, but do not know, that a lot of what is produced is from small scale projects feeding back into the grid. Solar power is used of course for heating domestic hot water systems - an ideal use of solar power, and one that is used for blocks of high rise flats. Almost any house can have such a system, and the payback is satisfactory. You do need to have the cash to lay out in the first place, or the borrowing power, but that applies to anything you want to buy.

I have read many hundreds of your posts since I joined TBN about a year after you, and I have enjoyed reading most of them, also learned a few things from you, so I feel I can suggest that perhaps you should have an open mind on the possibility that some renewable energy schemes can be successful and can be profitable without being subsidized. Please take the time to have a look at some of the schemes which have been done by individuals and ask them directly about any questions you have.

I wasn't purposely attacking anything or anybody personally. My apologies when it comes across that way. I was addressing the facts that the typical reader would not know or think of asking about. And thank you, I do try to be entertaining if and when possible. I also do stage theater. Big Chief in Peter Pan, the pantomime was the latest.
Unlike most on this site and unlike 99.99999999999999% of the green advocates in the media. I work in the power generation industry and understand firsthand what is practical and what is not. There is what sounds good for an ideal clean world and what works on Star Trek or the promises made on a 30 second greenie interview. Some of these greenies make a good living making promises. Then there is the harsh reality of the real world . Limited sun, unreliable wind, the need for backup power, clouds, I2R losses and $$$ energy storage with low energy density.
If a system can not operate without subsidies then it is not practical.
Some folk are not familiar with the schemes for solar PV across all time zones in the US south and wind turbines everywhere. Then transmit the PV & wind electricity to the north west in the morning and the north east in the evening ? Hence 2500+ mile transmission lines . Even with DC the cost and losses would be prohibitive.
About the best we can do is the next generation molton salt or PHWR reactors to use low grade fuel and Thorium for base load power. Hydro electric provides some limited peaking capacity. Fossial to load follow the peaks. Wind and solar fine, but they get paid the same wholesale grid rate as everybody else.
Wind and solar is actually a worthwhile addition to small isolated electrical grids without baseload power. That primarily generate with imported diesel fuel in turbo diesels and gas turbines. Where wholesale electrical prices are 20+ US cents per Kw/hr. Hawaii and maybe Alaska for a developed country.Small undeveloped countries glad to have some power at any time. Haiti comes to mind as just one.

 

[Redneck in training]

It was that way with the blower fans at the heavy water plant. 13.8Kv motors with across the line starters.

This particular machine is the biggest axial compressor aver built. It has five 52 MW motors. It is so big you can walk inside of it. You might guess where it is located and what it is used for.